Glossary entry

Dutch term or phrase:

onderzetster

English translation:

pledg(e)or

Added to glossary by Maria Ramon
Oct 3, 2011 15:56
13 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Dutch term

onderzetster

Dutch to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s)
De comparant verklaarde dat de n.v. (hierna te noemen ''onderzetster'') verklaarde ten behoeve van de sub 2 genoemde n.v. (hierna te noemen ''credietgeefster'') tot zekerheid voor al hetgeen ...... (The document is a notarial deed)

I have not yet seen this word ''onderzetster'' in any other legal text I have ever translated or seen. I think it may mean 'co-signer' or the company which provides the collateral, but I am not sure. I looked on many places on the internet and did not find the translation into English. I find it in Dutch in a sentence' ''onderzetster'' van een hypotheek' - the text I am translating also concerns a mortgage/hypotheek.

I appreciate any help you all can give. Thank you in advance.

Maria Ramon
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 pledg(e)or
5 +2 mortgagor
4 mortgagee
3 co-signer

Discussion

Lianne van de Ven Oct 5, 2011:
Mortgagor too narrow http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/mortgagor
the person who has borrowed money and pledged his/her real property as security for the (mortgagee).
De onderzetter/guarantor hoeft niet noodzakelijk degene te zijn die ook de lening heeft aangegaan (=mortgagor). Ze verlenen alleen een garantie.
Lianne van de Ven Oct 5, 2011:
back to my own 'guarantor' http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/guarantor
Rather than co-signer (too narrow) or pledger (ambiguous)
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/pledger
Bryan Crumpler Oct 5, 2011:
OK, then the 2007 reference is irrelevant ... ...and the assets being pledged as collateral will ultimately determine what you call [entity] in your "heretofore referred to as [entity]".

Refer to: http://is.gd/aNAIDc under "Gebruikte termen"

For the differences, see: http://is.gd/mffqzs

If it's real property being collateralized, it's going to be a mortagor/mortgagee thing.

If it's moveable property that is transferred into the posession (i.e. actual OR constructive possession) of the creditor, but the owner still holds the title, then it's going to be a "pledgeor/pledgee" or a "bailor/bailee" thing.

If it's movable property (e.g. an asset !!! like machinery, computer equipment, securities, bonds, stock options) that is collateralized by contract, yet the asset(s) remain(s) in the physical possession of the debtor/borrower AND the creditor/lender contractually retains the power to seize and sell the asset until the loan is repaid in full, then it's going to be a "hypothecator/hypothecatee" thing --- OR as is referred to *in business* as a "grantor/grantee".

See: http://is.gd/ge1TLn

I think now that "grantor/grantee" may be what you're really after for the "onderzetter/creditgeefster" dichotomy.
Maria Ramon (asker) Oct 5, 2011:
It is an asset backed loan for commercial purposes and it is a 'recht van hypotheek'. The text is quite old, about 30 years old and it has the very convoluted Dutch language.
Bryan Crumpler Oct 5, 2011:
@ Maria (the asker): Do you know what the collateral is (e.g. land, commercial real estate, business assets etc.)?

This would help clarify whether you are dealing with the term "hypotheek" as used colloquially, in which case it would mean "hypothecaire lening" (i.e. "asset based loan", "hypothec" or "(commercial) mortgage loan", since you're dealing with business corporations *perhaps* attemping to buy land for business purposes or office buildings), OR whether you are dealing with "hypotheek" as a legal right or asset-backed security, in which case it really means "recht van hypotheek" (i.e. "legal right over debtor property").

As you probably know, in the US, businesses don't usually take out a mortgage (i.e. mortgage loan), but rather engage in some form of asset-backed lending, which MAY include a commercial mortgage loan when it comes to real property, or could include some other major asset altogether (depreciable or non, just as in NL and BE when referring to the term "hypotheek"). Of course, I'm continuing to operate under the reality that a "hypotheek" doesn't necessarily have to be commercial real estate, in which case you would know what is being "ondergezet" (i.e. pledged as collateral)
Frank van Thienen (X) Oct 3, 2011:
confusing indeed... Misinterpreted...
It seems I mixed up the terms mortgagee and mortgagor.
The mortgagee is the lender, who provides the mortgage and the funds. The mortgagor or borrower owns the real estate and is offering that real estate as collateral ("onderzetten") for the loan. As there is collateral in this transaction, are a co-signer or guarantor even in the picture? Isn't the mortgagor in fact also the guarantor?

Proposed translations

+2
2 hrs
Selected

pledg(e)or

Based off of my research and explanation provided in the reference below...


pledg·or also pledge·or (pljr, plj-ôr)
n. Law
A person who deposits property as a pledge.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4 Edit copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Also:

Dictionary of Law 3rd Ed. (Peter Colling Pub.) gives "pledger" a person who gives objects or documents as security for money lent.
Peer comment(s):

agree Lianne van de Ven : This makes sense, Bryan, as the best/most general translation for "degene door wie een of andere zekerheid wordt verleend".
53 mins
Yes, yes... the general/universal form is what I was going for with this suggestion. To asker: also see info here -> http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/pledgers
agree Michael Beijer
976 days
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I have carefully read all entries and suggestions/links. After carefully reviewing the text and the suggestions I know that this is the appropriate translation for the particular files I am translating. I appreciate everyone's contribution to this question; it has been very interesting and very useful, not only to me at this time, but I am sure also to everyone else. Thank you, Bryan and also everyone else for all your valuable help."
38 mins

mortgagee

Van Dale:
onder'zetten2 (overgankelijk werkwoord) (juridisch)
mortgage

see also previous posting (2007):
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/dutch_to_english/finance_general/1...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 45 mins (2011-10-03 16:42:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Mortgagee: "An entity that lends money to a borrower for the purpose of purchasing a piece of real property."
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/mortgagee.asp#axzz1Zjmpw...

"Maar met het woord 'hypotheek' wordt feitelijk het recht van eigendom verzwakt, in ruil voor het geld om daarmee te kopen. Er wordt een recht ondergezet ( van daar ook de vroeger voorkomende term van onderzetter ) en op basis daarvan is een ander, een geldgever, bereid om geld te geven."
http://www.financiele-coach.nl/hypotheken.htm
Peer comment(s):

neutral Lianne van de Ven : This doesn't seem right. See also discussion in this reference.
5 mins
you're right - i mixed it up :-)
Something went wrong...
+2
53 mins

mortgagor

JurLex:onderzetter=mortgagor, onderzetten=to mortgage
Peer comment(s):

agree LouisV (X)
6 hrs
Thank you.
agree Kitty Brussaard : See also http://www.proz.com/kudoz/dutch_to_english/finance_general/1...
18 hrs
Thank you.
Something went wrong...
38 mins

co-signer

Hi Maria, I think co-signer works. Look for 'onderzetter' rather than 'onderzetster'.

“onderzetter”: degene door wie, tot meerdere zekerheid voor de betaling van de lening, recht van hypotheek en/of pandrecht en/of andere zekerheid aan de geldgever is verleend, alsmede zijn rechtsopvolger(s);
http://www.argenta.nl/nl/Images/Algemene Voorwaarden Stater_...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 54 mins (2011-10-03 16:50:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Enigszins verwarrend is het wel:

"Het kan echter nog ingewikkelder (en dit komt ook vrij veel voor): want waarom zou de koper zelf geld op tafel leggen als hij het ook kan lenen? In dat geval dienen de huizen als onderpand voor een hypotheek, verstrekt door een bank. In zo'n hypotheekakte kom je dan, behalve de hypotheekgever (de nieuwe eigenaar) en de hypotheeknemer (de bank), ook de onderzetter tegen, dit is de oude eigenaar."
http://ravijn.home.xs4all.nl/spok/spok_01.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2011-10-03 16:56:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I think an "onderzetter" is a guarantor, as mentioned by two comments in the discussion of the link Frank provides, and as in the definition in my link. Rather maybe guarantor than co-signer then.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2011-10-03 17:00:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

zie onderzetter: http://beldna.nl/keuze/juridisch-woordenboek

2. Het in het vorige lid bepaalde is niet van toepassing bij
het afstaan van het Onderpand in tijdcharter voor ten hoogste
één jaar of in reischarter voor ten hoogste één reis met een
reisduur van niet meer dan drie maanden mits Schuldenaar
of Onderzetter niet jegens de Bank in gebreke is en mits de
huurovereenkomst niet tot nadeel van de Bank strekt.
http://www.fizzo.nl/fizzo/bestanden/?FilesHash=f1195f2309285...
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

51 mins
Reference:

onderzetster / onderzetter

"onderzetster" with suffix "-ster" is just another form for "onderzetter", but "-ster" indicates that it actually refers to a person rather than an object or adjective, and likely disambiguates the traditional naming for a literal "onderzetter" which is a saucer of sorts.

Perhaps some etymology of mortaging terms will help you along the way (see below):

Het woord 'hypotheek' komt volgens het woordenboek van 'hypothèmi', wat 'eronder plaatsen / zetten' betekent. Bij de ouderwetse leenhuizen, gaf je iets in 'pand', als zekerheid overdragen, en kreeg daarvoor tijdelijk geld ter beschikking. Daar kun je dat woord 'pand' vandaan halen, onderpand. In pand geven. Ook onroerend goed wordt wel 'pand' genoemd , maar met dat noemen, gebruiken we het woord al weer anders. Maar met het woord 'hypotheek' wordt feitelijk het recht van eigendom verzwakt, in ruil voor het geld om daarmee te kopen. Er wordt een recht ondergezet ( van daar ook de vroeger voorkomende term van onderzetter ) en op basis daarvan is een ander, een geldgever, bereid om geld te geven.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2011-10-03 17:32:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Also:

"In de praktijk worden de termen ‘geldlening’ en ‘hypotheek’ nogal eens met elkaar verward, reden om er even nader bij stil te staan.

De geldlening is de overeenkomst tussen de geldlener en de geldverstrekker (hierna gemakshalve te noemen: de bank), waarin zij met elkaar overeenkomen hoeveel geld er wordt geleend , welke rente daarover verschuldigd is en op welke wijze en onder welke voorwaarden er wel of niet moet/mag worden afgelost.

De hypotheek is de zekerheid die de geldlener geeft aan de bank dat hij zijn verplichtingen ook daadwerkelijk zal nakomen. De geldlener wordt dan ook wel aangeduid als ‘hypotheekgever’, de bank als ‘hypotheeknemer’. (In sommige gevallen fungeert een derde – bijvoorbeeld de ouders van de geldlener - als hypotheekgever.) De zekerheid van de hypotheek bestaat uit een waardevol onderpand: een onroerende zaak (meestal een huis), die aan de hypotheekgever in eigendom toebehoort. Het woord ‘hypotheek’ is afgeleid uit het Grieks en betekent letterlijk ‘onderzetten’. De hypotheekgever staat dus eigenlijk borg voor zijn eigen verplichtingen of voor die van een andere geldlener door zijn huis onder te zetten."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2011-10-03 18:27:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And:

"Als iemand geld leent voor de koop van een huis, en hij geeft het huis als onderpand, is hij eigenaar van het pand en tevens een geldnemer maar ook de hypotheekgever. De geldgever, meestal een financiële instelling, is de hypotheeknemer (hij verkrijgt het recht van hypotheek: eerste recht van verkoop). Deze termen worden vaak omgekeerd gebruikt. Men zegt meestal dat men hypotheek neemt om een huis te kunnen kopen, maar feitelijk geeft men hypotheek."

From: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypotheek_(financieel)

Basically my whole point is people confuse the term "gever" and "nemer" when it comes to hypothecation, which is why the dictionaries have confused the translations (as was the case in the link Frank provided). And people have long used the term "hypotheek" incorrectly to mean "hypothecaire lening".

So I suggest (for the sake of understanding my train of thought) that you use the french legal translation of "hypotheek" as "pledge" (or "collateral") so as to understand how this works.

For example:

A borrower ("geldlener") pledges collateral ("geeft een hypotheek") to a bank ("geldgever") in exchange for money. The bank accepts the collateral ("neemt de hypotheek") before giving the money and, thus, retains the right to sell the collateral to someone else if the borrower does not repay all the money the bank gave to him/her (with interest).

So, when you look at the last sentence from my previous note:

"De hypotheekgever staat dus eigenlijk borg voor zijn eigen verplichtingen ... door zijn huis onder te zetten."

...you can see that the term "onderzetten" more correctly means "to put up as collateral"

The "onderzetter" or "onderzetster", thus, is the person who puts up the property as collateral, or the person who pledges the collateral to the lender.

So a "hypotheek" is not really a mortgage, but in general is "collateral". And in terms of finance, we know that "collateral" is a pledge of property which is SOMETIMES a home (i.e real property). You can get a "hypotheek" (in this case meaning "hypothecaire lening") for a car, an expensive musical instrument, a yacht or any other expensive property. It doesn't necessarily have to be "a house".

Therefore:

It is definitely NOT the bank (i.e. the mortgagee).

It is NOT (necessarily) the co-signer or guarantor (i.e. the person pledging collateral for someone else).

It is merely the debtor (the person putting up whatever it is he/she buys as collateral to the lender).
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Kitty Brussaard : And with Chris's additional info on the use of 'onderzetster' in this specific context.
18 hrs
neutral Chris Hopley : In this case, -ster refers NOT to a person at all, but to a corporation (an N.V. is specifically mentioned immediately before the term onderzetster) which are commonly treated as feminine in Dutch.
1 day 15 hrs
True about the n.v. Wasn't the point of my reference, however, as "-ster" does not always feminize the noun as a rule (see grammar ref).
Something went wrong...
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search