Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Italian term or phrase:
ff
English translation:
ff / leaves
- The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2010-10-03 13:54:12 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
Sep 30, 2010 09:15
13 yrs ago
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Italian term
ff
Italian to English
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This term is from a bibliography 'Rome, Casanatense Library, ms. 85, ff. 16v-18r', what does it refer to (foglio?) and what is the correct term in English?
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 +2 | ff / leaves |
Barbara Carrara
|
| 5 +1 | fogli |
Constantinos Faridis (X)
|
References
| Defintion of folio |
Mr Murray (X)
|
Proposed translations
+2
1 hr
Barbara Carrara
Italy
Italy
Native in Italian
Works in field
Italy
www.theitalianwordshop.com
Native in: Italian 
Works in: English to Italian, French to Italian, Italian
Related KudoZ points
:
28
Selected
ff / leaves
I'd leave it as is (ff) also in EN.
If you need to add a translation to it I'd go with 'leaves' (carte in Italian), rather than 'folios' (fogli in Italian), which would otherwise be the correct translation, as this appears to be referring to a double-page foliation or pagination, rather than a single-page one. This would explain why, in your text, two even-numbered pages are mentioned following the abbreviation 'ff', rather than an even and an odd one for recto and verso, as we would normally have today.
So, the first 'spread' in your sequence would bear the page number on the left-end page (verso) only, and the second one would have it on the right-hand one (recto).
'ff - leaves, where the pages are unnumbered or numbered as leaves (a leaf has two sides, a page has one side)'
(source, http://www.abfar.co.uk/glossary.htm)
See also,
http://www.libraries.psu.edu/tas/locke/mss/mslocke-c28.html
and the 'foliation' paragraph here,
http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Long/description/
As a reference, you may also be interested in this KudoZ on folios,
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/English/history/870222-folio.html
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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-09-30 12:54:41 GMT)
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Take a look at this,
'A sheet forms two leaves; a page is one side of a leaf. The right-hand page of the folio is the recto (from the ablative of the Latin rectus). The lefthand page is the verso (short for verso folio, on the turned leaf). When the recto and verso are referred to in locating a particular work in a ms., the abbreviations r and v are usually used (sometimes a and b are used instead of r and v). Thus Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is on ff. 91r-124v (or 91a-124b) of Ms. Cotton Nero A.x.'
(source, http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/mssmed.htm)
If you need to add a translation to it I'd go with 'leaves' (carte in Italian), rather than 'folios' (fogli in Italian), which would otherwise be the correct translation, as this appears to be referring to a double-page foliation or pagination, rather than a single-page one. This would explain why, in your text, two even-numbered pages are mentioned following the abbreviation 'ff', rather than an even and an odd one for recto and verso, as we would normally have today.
So, the first 'spread' in your sequence would bear the page number on the left-end page (verso) only, and the second one would have it on the right-hand one (recto).
'ff - leaves, where the pages are unnumbered or numbered as leaves (a leaf has two sides, a page has one side)'
(source, http://www.abfar.co.uk/glossary.htm)
See also,
http://www.libraries.psu.edu/tas/locke/mss/mslocke-c28.html
and the 'foliation' paragraph here,
http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Long/description/
As a reference, you may also be interested in this KudoZ on folios,
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/English/history/870222-folio.html
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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-09-30 12:54:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Take a look at this,
'A sheet forms two leaves; a page is one side of a leaf. The right-hand page of the folio is the recto (from the ablative of the Latin rectus). The lefthand page is the verso (short for verso folio, on the turned leaf). When the recto and verso are referred to in locating a particular work in a ms., the abbreviations r and v are usually used (sometimes a and b are used instead of r and v). Thus Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is on ff. 91r-124v (or 91a-124b) of Ms. Cotton Nero A.x.'
(source, http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/mssmed.htm)
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Mr Murray (X)
: True, the abbreviation 'ff' is also used for 'folios'. But not 'leaves' as a leaf = one sheet of paper (see my Reference addition).
5 mins
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Yep, as mentioned in my explanation. Thanks, Mr Murray // Oh, see what you mean. Yes, of course. Cheers, B.
|
|
| agree |
ARS54
11 mins
|
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Grazie, chérie!
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "excellent explanation"
+1
3 mins
fogli
si suele radoppiare la lettera iniziale per indicare che si tratta di una parola svolta al plurale.
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Note added at 2 ώρες (2010-09-30 11:32:33 GMT)
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yes "folio"but not page. A folio has 2 pages ...
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Note added at 3 ημέρες4 ώρες (2010-10-03 13:55:58 GMT) Post-grading
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io invece insisto che gli iniziali ff significano fogli. Plurale della parola f. Leaves non ha ninte che fare (daltronde è inglese e non italiano)
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Note added at 2 ώρες (2010-09-30 11:32:33 GMT)
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yes "folio"but not page. A folio has 2 pages ...
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Note added at 3 ημέρες4 ώρες (2010-10-03 13:55:58 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
io invece insisto che gli iniziali ff significano fogli. Plurale della parola f. Leaves non ha ninte che fare (daltronde è inglese e non italiano)
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
writeaway
: "what does it refer to (foglio?) and what is the correct term in English?" to quote asker's question
8 mins
|
|
foglio = folio (is also used in English)
|
|
| agree |
Mr Murray (X)
: Just 'folios' in English. 'folio' is also used in English. "a set of folded papers or sheets" [OED] In context, these are not 'pages' but folded sheets in a manuscript - possibly illustrations. BUT not 'fogli'.
1 hr
|
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thanks
|
Reference comments
2 hrs
Reference:
Defintion of folio
folio noun (a) large book format, where the sheets of paper have been folded once, each sheet making two leaves* or four pages; a folio edition if the book of drawings; (b) number printed on a page; the folios are printed in 10 point Baskerville, centred; blind folio = page with no printed page number; drop folio = page number printed at the foot of the page; expressed folio = printed page number (as opposed to a blind folio); (c) page with number, especially two facing pages in an account book which have the same number, or a page of a manuscript which has a number on one side only.
As a verb, 'to folio' is to put the page numbers on a page.
NB *this is why I would not suggest 'leaf/leaves' as an equivalent for 'folio/folios.'
leaf noun a sheet of paper (which may be printed on both sides, making two pages**)
**interesting! One leaf = two pages
All definitions:
Peter Collin Publishing's Dictionary of Printing & Publishing
As a verb, 'to folio' is to put the page numbers on a page.
NB *this is why I would not suggest 'leaf/leaves' as an equivalent for 'folio/folios.'
leaf noun a sheet of paper (which may be printed on both sides, making two pages**)
**interesting! One leaf = two pages
All definitions:
Peter Collin Publishing's Dictionary of Printing & Publishing
Example sentence:
Each <u>leaf</u> of a folio book thus represents one half the size of the original sheet. [Wikipedia]
Note from asker:
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