Glossary entry (derived from question below)
German term or phrase:
ideell (getragen)
English translation:
intellectual (support)
Added to glossary by
British Diana
Apr 24, 2010 08:34
14 yrs ago
7 viewers *
German term
ideell (getragen)
German to English
Art/Literary
Tourism & Travel
Museumsführer
I can't believe that nobody has asked for this term yet, as I'm really stuck.
The translation I have been asked to correct is about the Goethehaus in Frankfurt. In one paragraph it says:
"The ‘Goethe-Haus’ belongs to the ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’, a citizens’ foundation established in 1859, which purchased Goethe’s parental home in 1863, furnished it and opened it to the public. Today it also comprises the Frankfurt Goethe Museum, a graphic arts collection, a special library and a manuscript archive. The institute also issues the Jahrbuch des Freien Deutschen Hochstifts, an academic yearbook, and organizes special exhibitions and lectures. In addition, it edits the works of Brentano and Hofmannsthal with critical notes. The ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’ receives its xxxmoralxxxxxand a substantial portion of its financial support from about 2.000 society members".
The German source text : " Ideell und zu einem erheblichen Teil auch finanziell wird das FDH von rund 2.000 Mitgliedern getragen".
I am not happy with "moral support" for "ideell...getragen", perhaps you guys (!) could think of something better? Thanks a lot!
The translation I have been asked to correct is about the Goethehaus in Frankfurt. In one paragraph it says:
"The ‘Goethe-Haus’ belongs to the ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’, a citizens’ foundation established in 1859, which purchased Goethe’s parental home in 1863, furnished it and opened it to the public. Today it also comprises the Frankfurt Goethe Museum, a graphic arts collection, a special library and a manuscript archive. The institute also issues the Jahrbuch des Freien Deutschen Hochstifts, an academic yearbook, and organizes special exhibitions and lectures. In addition, it edits the works of Brentano and Hofmannsthal with critical notes. The ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’ receives its xxxmoralxxxxxand a substantial portion of its financial support from about 2.000 society members".
The German source text : " Ideell und zu einem erheblichen Teil auch finanziell wird das FDH von rund 2.000 Mitgliedern getragen".
I am not happy with "moral support" for "ideell...getragen", perhaps you guys (!) could think of something better? Thanks a lot!
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+2
52 mins
German term (edited):
ideell
Selected
intellectual
Results 1 - 100 of about 598,000 for "intellectual and financial support": http://tinyurl.com/39aq2we
e.g.
We are so fortunate to have both the intellectual and financial support of our Fellows and benefactors...
http://www.iusafs.org/leadership/XO.asp
IPI is grateful to our generous friends and donors who provide both intellectual and financial support.
http://www.ipinst.org/about/support-ipi.html
Through intellectual and financial support, the Deloitte IFRS Consortium hopes to accelerate the integration of IFRS into school curriculums...
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_US/us/article/e87dfd00571012...
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Note added at 59 mins (2010-04-24 09:33:57 GMT)
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i.e. 'intellectual' in the sense of 'input of ideas' (ideell)
I have the same reservations as you about 'moral support'. Is the organisation somehow "angeschlagen"?
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Note added at 1 hr (2010-04-24 10:10:23 GMT)
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Re other suggestions:
'spiritual' - it's not a religious foundation
'ethical' - it's not a medical foundation
Key words in your own description: museum, arts, academic, library, archive, critical notes etc. These supporters certainly sound like 'intellectuals'.
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Note added at 1 day14 hrs (2010-04-25 22:44:20 GMT)
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Dear Diana,
As you will already know, the etiquette of exercising a critique on another answer is problematic. Nonetheless, MN’s comment on my own answer (“I think Andrew's intellectual support works too…”) plus your open-ended invitation (“It would be nice to have a few more comments or votes…”) gives me hope that the additional observations will not be considered out of place.
Current leader in terms of votes cast:
“The FDH initiative/concept/idea is backed by 2,000 members…”
1) For this to work, the client would have to be agreeable to the proposed abbreviation. Alternatively, the suggestion needs be adapted (“The Freies Deutsches Hochstift initiative/concept/idea…). Rather unwieldy to my eye/ear.
2) Quote: "The ‘Goethe-Haus’ belongs to the ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’, a citizens’ foundation established in 1859” I somehow doubt that they had ‘initiatives’ in 1859 – it’s a very modern term. And the Stift has certainly moved on over the last century and a half from being a ‘concept’, ‘idea’ or a ‘twinkle in somebody’s eye’ to being an established part of the city’s cultural landscape.
3) Re ‘backing’. Also a very modern ‘concept’ (‘idea’ etc). And also, I feel, a tautology: The very act of signing up as a member of an organisation presupposes ‘backing’.
4) “Ideell und zu einem erheblichen Teil auch finanziell…” Not only do these two words rhyme, they are also the same parts of speech, i.e. adverbs, and therefore have to be treated equally. They can both be translated as English adverbs (supported xyzly and … financially) or as adjectives (xyz and … financial support). The current leader effectively sidesteps the challenge of the source sentence.
I do not envy you your choice. You are under considerable moral pressure from the approbation heaped on the current leader by such heavyweights as Paul Cohen, Dr Timm and mill. Heck, three of them even have a red P!
Good luck
AJS
e.g.
We are so fortunate to have both the intellectual and financial support of our Fellows and benefactors...
http://www.iusafs.org/leadership/XO.asp
IPI is grateful to our generous friends and donors who provide both intellectual and financial support.
http://www.ipinst.org/about/support-ipi.html
Through intellectual and financial support, the Deloitte IFRS Consortium hopes to accelerate the integration of IFRS into school curriculums...
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_US/us/article/e87dfd00571012...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 59 mins (2010-04-24 09:33:57 GMT)
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i.e. 'intellectual' in the sense of 'input of ideas' (ideell)
I have the same reservations as you about 'moral support'. Is the organisation somehow "angeschlagen"?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2010-04-24 10:10:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Re other suggestions:
'spiritual' - it's not a religious foundation
'ethical' - it's not a medical foundation
Key words in your own description: museum, arts, academic, library, archive, critical notes etc. These supporters certainly sound like 'intellectuals'.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day14 hrs (2010-04-25 22:44:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Dear Diana,
As you will already know, the etiquette of exercising a critique on another answer is problematic. Nonetheless, MN’s comment on my own answer (“I think Andrew's intellectual support works too…”) plus your open-ended invitation (“It would be nice to have a few more comments or votes…”) gives me hope that the additional observations will not be considered out of place.
Current leader in terms of votes cast:
“The FDH initiative/concept/idea is backed by 2,000 members…”
1) For this to work, the client would have to be agreeable to the proposed abbreviation. Alternatively, the suggestion needs be adapted (“The Freies Deutsches Hochstift initiative/concept/idea…). Rather unwieldy to my eye/ear.
2) Quote: "The ‘Goethe-Haus’ belongs to the ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’, a citizens’ foundation established in 1859” I somehow doubt that they had ‘initiatives’ in 1859 – it’s a very modern term. And the Stift has certainly moved on over the last century and a half from being a ‘concept’, ‘idea’ or a ‘twinkle in somebody’s eye’ to being an established part of the city’s cultural landscape.
3) Re ‘backing’. Also a very modern ‘concept’ (‘idea’ etc). And also, I feel, a tautology: The very act of signing up as a member of an organisation presupposes ‘backing’.
4) “Ideell und zu einem erheblichen Teil auch finanziell…” Not only do these two words rhyme, they are also the same parts of speech, i.e. adverbs, and therefore have to be treated equally. They can both be translated as English adverbs (supported xyzly and … financially) or as adjectives (xyz and … financial support). The current leader effectively sidesteps the challenge of the source sentence.
I do not envy you your choice. You are under considerable moral pressure from the approbation heaped on the current leader by such heavyweights as Paul Cohen, Dr Timm and mill. Heck, three of them even have a red P!
Good luck
AJS
Peer comment(s):
agree |
TonyTK
: A voice of reason, at last. Hence my "agree", even though I'm not too keen on "intellectual". What if the most of the members are thick? // Indeed. Like Jonny (sic) Wilkinson once said: "Der Menschheit ganzer Jammer faßt mich an."
56 mins
|
Thanks, TTK. I don't think we are talking about a bunch of rugby supporters here.
|
|
agree |
Michael Wetzel
: Slight change to sentence?: "The ‘Freies Deutsches Hochstift’ receives intellectual and a substantial portion of its financial support from its approximately 2.000 members." Better yet?: the verb "depends on" (set phrase and closer to "getragen von")
10 hrs
|
Thanks, Michael. A later initiative/concept/idea has since received more backing.
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "By a very narrow margin I think this is the best bet for my purposes. As I am only proof-reading I do not want to rearrange the entire sentence as Melanie's otherwise very persuasive suggestion would have entailed. I also ruled out the more "philosophical" dictionary items as being less readily understandable, even by the slightly highbrow clientele who are supposedly going to read this brochure.
Thank you, everyone for the interesting suggestions a really good discussion on an elusive term!"
+2
1 hr
idealistic
aimed primarily at preserving the ideals of Goethe
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Bernhard Sulzer
: see my reference.
20 hrs
|
Thanks, Bernhard
|
|
agree |
Thayenga
1 day 4 hrs
|
Danke, Elke.
|
+8
2 hrs
The FDH concept
The FDH initiative/concept/idea is backed by 2,000 members, who also provide a considerable portion of the financial support.
Just another suggestion. I think Andrew's intellectual support works too, but you have to work in that they provide a lot (but not all) of the funding.
Just another suggestion. I think Andrew's intellectual support works too, but you have to work in that they provide a lot (but not all) of the funding.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
mill2
: this is perfect IMO
2 hrs
|
thanks a million, mill
|
|
agree |
Michele Johnson
: I was thinking "conceptual" but I think this rearrangement sounds more native.
6 hrs
|
thank you
|
|
agree |
Johanna Timm, PhD
: This flows nicely ANd includes all the information - I like it!
12 hrs
|
thank you
|
|
agree |
Norbert Hermann
: In the light of the discussion and uncertainty of what "ideell" actually means in this context this is by far the best solution. Obviously, the dictionaries mentioned here don’t reach all the possible meanings.
20 hrs
|
thank you, I agree this is a tough one, considering it's a proofreading job
|
|
agree |
Kay Barbara
: Agree with Johanna, ticks all the boxes.
1 day 4 hrs
|
agree |
Paul Cohen
: This would be my 'ideal' solution - no pun intended.
1 day 7 hrs
|
agree |
Rebecca Garber
: With Johanna
1 day 10 hrs
|
neutral |
Lancashireman
: Sorry, Melanie. Not convinced. See additional note to my own proposal. Regards. AJS
1 day 11 hrs
|
agree |
BrigitteHilgner
: Coming back to this issue after quite a while I strongly support this solution - I think it works best.
2 days 1 hr
|
2 hrs
ideational
... might be a possibility?
ideell = ideational (Collins)
"ideational" derived from a) "to ideate" = image, conceive; form ideas (Concise Oxford Dictionary) and b) "ideation" = the power of the mind for forming ideas; the exercise of such power. (Chambers Dictionary)
"ideell" = a) nur gedacht, geistig (Duden, Rechtschreibung) und
b) "ideell" = die Idee betreffend, nur in der Vorstellung vorhanden; geistig: Eine rein deutsche Neubildung des 18./19. Jh.s. (Duden Herkunftswörterbuch
e.g.:
As bridge-builders, alumni could work out offers for every reference group, Roecken explained: for Fellowship Holders as a whole, (interchange and annual meeting, further education) or individually (advice, mentoring, assistance in emergencies), for Fellows (professional discussions, new topics, collegial advice), and for the foundation (expert dialog, new impulses, ideational support as multipliers).
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:GSdgzw_oq6kJ:www.daimler-...
The aim of the foundation is the promotion of training, education, science and research. At the same time it is a particular concern that promising young students are granted material and ideational support and encouragement.
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:wd0cMFv8wioJ:www.edmund-b...
Both gentlemen are cordially thanked for this excellent idea. Moreover, we also thank all members of the Hobby Friends for their ideational and financial support for the restoration of our valuable E.F. Walcker organ.
http://www.walcker-orgel-neuhausen-filder.de/Archiv/News_200...
Note from asker:
Brigitte, all three references are translations from German with different levels of proficiency, so I'm afraid they are not very convincing. In addition if I have never heard the word, in all modesty I doubt most of the readers of the leaflet will have done so, either. |
So sorry, Marga, no idea why I called you Brigitte by mistake! And I forget to thank you for your contribution. |
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Michele Johnson
: I don't think I have ever seen this word written or spoken anywhere, so despite what Collins says, it sounds worse/more non-native to me than the original "moral" here./ No doubt here about the dictionary. May just be me.
6 hrs
|
Thanks! Perhaps you should have a look in the Oxford and The Chambers Dictionaries for "ideational", or do you consider these works as "non-native"?//Next, if "ideational" has an entry in the Oxford Dict., then it ought to be unrefutably a valid EN word?
|
28 mins
OK as it stands
"in-kind contributions" is another possible interpretation, but fits less well here than does "moral support"
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Note added at 37 mins (2010-04-24 09:12:02 GMT)
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a google search for ["moral and financial support" foundation] garners innumerable hits
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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-04-24 12:15:08 GMT)
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We can speculate about this all day. Given the vagueness of the original, I'd ask the contractor.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-04-24 12:17:21 GMT)
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After a bit of cogitating, "non-material" might indeed be your safest bet.
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Note added at 37 mins (2010-04-24 09:12:02 GMT)
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a google search for ["moral and financial support" foundation] garners innumerable hits
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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-04-24 12:15:08 GMT)
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We can speculate about this all day. Given the vagueness of the original, I'd ask the contractor.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-04-24 12:17:21 GMT)
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After a bit of cogitating, "non-material" might indeed be your safest bet.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
writeaway
: spirtual, moral, ethical
22 mins
|
disagree |
TonyTK
: Sorry, Jonathan, but no way will "moral support" and Goethe-type foundation work in the same sentence. And that's lazy googling BTW. It's the foundations that themselves provide "moral and financial support".
1 hr
|
indeed, these institutions are providing support to the Goethe Haus
|
10 hrs
conceptually
This is the first thing that came to mind when I read the sentence in German. Also if you check out leo.org, one meaning for ideell has to do with 'idea' and there are some forum entries that list 'conceptually' as a solution for specific instances.
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Note added at 10 hrs (2010-04-24 18:48:26 GMT)
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conceptually - ie: with ideas or in the conception of the organization
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Note added at 10 hrs (2010-04-24 18:48:26 GMT)
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conceptually - ie: with ideas or in the conception of the organization
Example sentence:
"der Gründer unterstützt das Unternehmen weiterhin finanziell und ideell" -> supporting both financially and conceptually
Reference:
http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idThread=209342&idForum=1&lp=ende&lang=de
Note from asker:
Thank you, Heart, for drawing our attention to the leo forum entries. So even if there was a gap in KudoZ until my query, this word HAS posed problems to translators! Your solution sounds plausible, it gets me back to the question of the intellectual level of the potential readers of my text and whether this would be readily understood by them. |
1 day 20 hrs
ideally and to a significant part
...also COST RELATED, is the FDH supported by around 2000 members...
1 day 21 hrs
with words and deeds
a highfalutin way of saying "mit Rat und Tat helfen" IMHO
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Note added at 1 day22 hrs (2010-04-26 06:35:52 GMT)
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or "in word and deed"
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Note added at 1 day22 hrs (2010-04-26 06:35:52 GMT)
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or "in word and deed"
Reference comments
13 mins
Reference:
Muret-Sanders
ideell Adj.
1. (Ggs. materiell) non-material(istic), idealistic; Werte: auch spiritual; (ethisch) moral, ethical; ideeller Wert eines Gegenstandes: sentimental value
2. der ideelle Gehalt eines Buches etc. the ideas in (oder behind) a book etc.
3. PHILOS., MATH. ideal
© Langenscheidt KG, Berlin und München
1. (Ggs. materiell) non-material(istic), idealistic; Werte: auch spiritual; (ethisch) moral, ethical; ideeller Wert eines Gegenstandes: sentimental value
2. der ideelle Gehalt eines Buches etc. the ideas in (oder behind) a book etc.
3. PHILOS., MATH. ideal
© Langenscheidt KG, Berlin und München
Note from asker:
Thank you, Jonathan; now can any of these be used in my context: I think we can rule out spiritual, ethical, ideal and sentimental for a start. Non-material, moral and the ideas behind are at least worth considering |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
Norbert Hermann
: non-material
28 mins
|
thx, probably the best option here
|
|
agree |
Michele Johnson
: Non-material is "ideal" IMO
9 hrs
|
agree |
TonyTK
: Yes, "non-material" is probably the best answer on the board.
1 day 23 hrs
|
22 hrs
Reference:
idealistically
An honorable or worthy principle or aim, task, cause - an ideal or ideals is/are what the members believe in, represent, and support (IMO).
Ideell is a very nice German word and the English version should be of comparable quality.
Besides, "ideell" appears again on the website, see below.
I would also keep it positive and lofty, so negative meanings as in non-material won't do IMO.
Moral support would sound as if there is hardly any left for Goethe.
Intellectual does go in the direction of ideell, but I believe ideals/idealistic is a nicer solution.
I suggest idealistic support/idealistically supported/
carrying on the spirit/ the ideals/ideal values of the Goethehaus.
I hope these ideas might help for the second instance of the word in your text.
The words idea/concept as suggested above don't work for me.
They're not suggesting what that is and they are not as art-related and nice-sounding as "ideell" or the English "ideal(s)".
We are talking about Goethe!
http://www.goethehaus-frankfurt.de/freies-deutsches-hochstif...
Freies Deutsches Hochstift
Das Freie Deutsche Hochstift ist eines der ältesten Kulturinstitute Deutschlands und eine gemeinnützige Forschungsinstitution.
Zu ihm gehört als ideeller und anschaulicher Mittelpunkt Goethes Elternhaus am Großen Hirschgraben in Frankfurt am Main.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freies_Deutsches_Hochstift
Die politischen ideale der Revolution sollten in der Institution eine geistig-kulturelle Heimstatt finden. Der Verein stand von Beginn an jedem offen. Durch die Gründung der Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität in Frankfurt am Main verlagerte sich der Schwerpunkt der Vereinstätigkeit von einer Akademie und einer Art Volkshochschule zu einer Museums-, Sammlungs- und Forschungstätigkeit. Das Hochstift betreibt heute ein Dichterarchiv, eine Graphische Sammlung und eine Forschungsbibliothek. Der Schwerpunkt der aktuellen Forschungsarbeit wird von zwei historisch-kritischen Editionen gebildet.
Ideell is a very nice German word and the English version should be of comparable quality.
Besides, "ideell" appears again on the website, see below.
I would also keep it positive and lofty, so negative meanings as in non-material won't do IMO.
Moral support would sound as if there is hardly any left for Goethe.
Intellectual does go in the direction of ideell, but I believe ideals/idealistic is a nicer solution.
I suggest idealistic support/idealistically supported/
carrying on the spirit/ the ideals/ideal values of the Goethehaus.
I hope these ideas might help for the second instance of the word in your text.
The words idea/concept as suggested above don't work for me.
They're not suggesting what that is and they are not as art-related and nice-sounding as "ideell" or the English "ideal(s)".
We are talking about Goethe!
http://www.goethehaus-frankfurt.de/freies-deutsches-hochstif...
Freies Deutsches Hochstift
Das Freie Deutsche Hochstift ist eines der ältesten Kulturinstitute Deutschlands und eine gemeinnützige Forschungsinstitution.
Zu ihm gehört als ideeller und anschaulicher Mittelpunkt Goethes Elternhaus am Großen Hirschgraben in Frankfurt am Main.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freies_Deutsches_Hochstift
Die politischen ideale der Revolution sollten in der Institution eine geistig-kulturelle Heimstatt finden. Der Verein stand von Beginn an jedem offen. Durch die Gründung der Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität in Frankfurt am Main verlagerte sich der Schwerpunkt der Vereinstätigkeit von einer Akademie und einer Art Volkshochschule zu einer Museums-, Sammlungs- und Forschungstätigkeit. Das Hochstift betreibt heute ein Dichterarchiv, eine Graphische Sammlung und eine Forschungsbibliothek. Der Schwerpunkt der aktuellen Forschungsarbeit wird von zwei historisch-kritischen Editionen gebildet.
Note from asker:
Thank you, Bernhard, for this very comprehensive reference and I definitely agree that the term should have positive, cultured connotations. I am assuming that the visitors who read my leaflet will be quite well-educated and not Andrew's proverbial rugby supporters. However, see my discussion entry... |
Discussion
Wie oben angemerkt, habe ich die Antwort ausgewählt, die meinem Text, den Adressaten und meiner Aufgabe (Korrekturlesen) am besten entsprach.
However, watching the direction the discussion has been taking, I have decided that the choice seems to be between using a more learned "dictionary" word which actually has the meaning "Ideell" and turning the sentence round to refer to non-financial support in a more everyday manner.
a) by donation (suitable for the money-rich, time-poor supporter)
b) by voluntary work (suitable for the time-rich, money-poor supporter)
You could leave it out. "The activities of the xxx are supported and mainly funded by ..." but that could be wrong. "Erheblich" could mean 40% of the total. Or turn it around: "The 2,000 or so members support the work of the ...". To be honest, I don't think "ideell" is about contributing specific ideas in this case; the members just think the Hochstift is a good idea, something worth supporting.
"programatically"?