Dec 20, 2006 13:56
17 yrs ago
English term
Sweden
Services from the Heart
Native in: Polish (Variant: Standard-Poland) 
Works in: English to Polish, Polish, Dutch to Polish
He [here]
English
Art/Literary
Linguistics
grammar
"Her support for (...) lies in (...) radiation of Her Love for Him, for He Who is Her Truth."
I'm doing a little voluntary editing of a book and like to get confirmation if "He" can be accepted in this sentence. (Or does it really have to be changed to "Him" rather?) Would greatly appreciate any feedback. Thanks.
I'm doing a little voluntary editing of a book and like to get confirmation if "He" can be accepted in this sentence. (Or does it really have to be changed to "Him" rather?) Would greatly appreciate any feedback. Thanks.
Responses
| 3 +4 | leave it as He |
Craig Meulen
|
| 4 +5 | Him |
Mehmet Hascan
|
| 4 +3 | 'he' is correct here |
Robert Fox
|
| 5 +2 | see notes please |
Hamid Sadeghieh
|
| 5 | he |
meticula
|
Responses
+4
19 mins
Craig Meulen
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
&
English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Related KudoZ points
:
31
Selected
leave it as He
Although in the first phrase, "Her Love for Him" the "Him" is gramatically correct, and technically speaking the second phrase is just a mirror of this, so "for Him", in reality, I think we can treat "He Who is Her Truth" like a proper name and leave it.
Otherwise we have "for Him Who is Her Truth", which reads strangely.
Why all the capitals? Is "She" a Goddess as well?
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Note added at 31 mins (2006-12-20 14:27:46 GMT)
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//
I looked this up in "Practical English Usage" by Swan - the "Bible" when it comes to things like this, and even he doesn't have a clear answer - usage is clearly mixed.
One of his examples:
Everything comes to him who waits.
is considered more correct than
Everything comes to he who waits.
but both are used.
Although that seems to contradict my answer here, (Him would be "more correct"), I think we have another factor in play here, which is the acceptance of the standard formulation "He Who ...", so I stand by my answer based on treating this like a fixed name.
Otherwise we have "for Him Who is Her Truth", which reads strangely.
Why all the capitals? Is "She" a Goddess as well?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 31 mins (2006-12-20 14:27:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
//
I looked this up in "Practical English Usage" by Swan - the "Bible" when it comes to things like this, and even he doesn't have a clear answer - usage is clearly mixed.
One of his examples:
Everything comes to him who waits.
is considered more correct than
Everything comes to he who waits.
but both are used.
Although that seems to contradict my answer here, (Him would be "more correct"), I think we have another factor in play here, which is the acceptance of the standard formulation "He Who ...", so I stand by my answer based on treating this like a fixed name.
Note from asker:
| Thank you, I also had some vague memory that there must be some rule standing behind it, so I just needed a confirmation. Am grateful native speakers are here to help :) |
| About capitals: text refers to Divine Man and Divine Woman Who are in the very Heart of every each of us. |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you very much for your explanations, also big thanks to Robert and Hamid, pity I can't divide points..."
+3
17 mins
'he' is correct here
This is a very stylised form of writing (and probably quite old?). You certainly could not say 'Him who is her truth' in my opinion. I should know the grammatical reason why, but I can't remember. Maybe one of my learned colleagues can help here. I think it's something to do with the defining clause 'who is her truth' but I'm not sure. I haven't got time right now to look it up in my grammar books. Hope this helps.
Note from asker:
| No, the text is not old. In fact the book is being written currently by a non-native English speaker that's why I preferred to get confirmation. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Craig Meulen
: I also had the thought "I should know the grammatical reason why"!!
3 mins
|
|
Thanks :-)
|
|
| agree |
Brie Vernier
28 mins
|
|
Thanks :-)
|
|
| agree |
ErichEko ⟹⭐
11 hrs
|
|
Thanks :-)
|
33 mins
meticula
Specializes in field
he
See the link with examples:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="for he who is"&btnG=Se...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="for he who is"&btnG=Se...
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Brie Vernier
: This is not helpful, as the majority of these examples use 'for' as a conjunction.
11 mins
|
+5
3 mins
Him
"Him" makes more sense to me. Hope it helps.
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Note added at 1 hr (2006-12-20 15:22:19 GMT)
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http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewpoetry.asp?id=175172
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Note added at 1 hr (2006-12-20 15:22:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewpoetry.asp?id=175172
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Nesrin
: unless it's "for he is her truth".
1 min
|
|
thanks Nesrin
|
|
| agree |
Bettina Grieser Johns
13 mins
|
|
thanks Bettina
|
|
| agree |
Jack Doughty
34 mins
|
|
thanks Jack
|
|
| agree |
Alfa Trans (X)
3 days 3 hrs
|
|
thank you.
|
|
| agree |
Jim Tucker (X)
: of course. "for him"
165 days
|
|
thank you.
|
+2
18 hrs
Hamid Sadeghieh
Iran
Iran
Specializes in field
Iran
Translation Studies, Ph.D Candidate
Native in: Persian (Farsi) 
Works in: English to Persian (Farsi), Persian (Farsi) to English, Persian (Farsi), and 2 more.
see notes please
From a prescriptivist's point of view, the one and the only correct answer is "Him"; because when an English pronoun takes the position of the noun phrase component of a propositional phrase, the objective paradigm (i.e. form) of the appropriate pronoun should be used.
Another justification for rejecting the use of "He" after "for" is that it makes a sense of incompleteness of the sentence meaning, esp. when it is read smoothly for the first time. That is because "for" can be used as both a preposition and conjunction. "for" as a conjunction normally precedes a subjective pronoun (e.g. he,she,etc.), while, as a proposition, it normally precedes an objective pronoun (e.g. him,her,etc.).
She was worried, for he, who has usually been punctual, was late.
She bought a present for him, who was just graduated.
From a descriptivist's point of view, however, correctness and incorrectness of language does not make sense, as long as it can establish an informative communication base. Thus, "... for he who ..." is treated as a popular (common) mistake and is generally accepted, esp. in spoken and informal written language. (A democratic view of language!)
With respect to this specific sentence, I think there is a redundency in the expression "... Her Love for Him, for Him Who is Her Truth". Some languages may employ this technique (redundency) in order to foreground (emphasize, emotionalize, or exaggerate) the theme of their expression. In English, however, an equivalent technique would be the use of pronoun "one".
Her support for (...) lies in (...) radiation of Her Love for Him; the One Who is Her Truth.
Another justification for rejecting the use of "He" after "for" is that it makes a sense of incompleteness of the sentence meaning, esp. when it is read smoothly for the first time. That is because "for" can be used as both a preposition and conjunction. "for" as a conjunction normally precedes a subjective pronoun (e.g. he,she,etc.), while, as a proposition, it normally precedes an objective pronoun (e.g. him,her,etc.).
She was worried, for he, who has usually been punctual, was late.
She bought a present for him, who was just graduated.
From a descriptivist's point of view, however, correctness and incorrectness of language does not make sense, as long as it can establish an informative communication base. Thus, "... for he who ..." is treated as a popular (common) mistake and is generally accepted, esp. in spoken and informal written language. (A democratic view of language!)
With respect to this specific sentence, I think there is a redundency in the expression "... Her Love for Him, for Him Who is Her Truth". Some languages may employ this technique (redundency) in order to foreground (emphasize, emotionalize, or exaggerate) the theme of their expression. In English, however, an equivalent technique would be the use of pronoun "one".
Her support for (...) lies in (...) radiation of Her Love for Him; the One Who is Her Truth.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Craig Meulen
: also a good explanation, and a good suggestion, with One
8 hrs
|
|
Thank you
|
|
| agree |
Jim Tucker (X)
: very nice entry
165 days
|
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