Aug 28, 2006 10:20
18 yrs ago
French term
Temps décalé
French to English
Other
Music
Flamenco
Le silence s’impose enfin, lorsque deux palmeros entament la mesure. Puis le temps décalé arrive juste avant un premier accord, qui s’accroche très vite au compas, gagne en puissance, en présence, en sens…
Description of start of a flamenco performance. The palmeros would be the clappers, the compas the legs/feet, and the temps décalé ... but is it a proper musical term or just a reference to the time-delay in the rhythm?
Description of start of a flamenco performance. The palmeros would be the clappers, the compas the legs/feet, and the temps décalé ... but is it a proper musical term or just a reference to the time-delay in the rhythm?
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 | the offset accent |
David Vaughn
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| 3 +3 | offbeat |
Veronica Coquard
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| 4 +1 | the compas (rhythm) |
M_a_r_i_n_a
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| 3 +1 | syncopation, syncopated rhythm |
Janet Ross Snyder
|
Proposed translations
10 hrs
Selected
the offset accent
I'm not satisfied with this, but it starts to answer the demands of ambiguity and the avoidance of musical terminology that seem necesary here.
I'll just mention that the talk of 12 beats refers to certain compas of cante jondo, which is not necessarily the case here, but still serves as example.
I'll just mention that the talk of 12 beats refers to certain compas of cante jondo, which is not necessarily the case here, but still serves as example.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "This has been a really interesting thread and I wish I could award points all round.
Inkling, your answer was close. 4 points would have been well earned, but I wasn't getting the picture where the counting was concerned because of my very elementary musical knowledge.
Marina, I didn't understand what was going on until I read your analysis of the rhythmic structure of flamenco. I would have given you 4 points but I still didn't get the bit about the offbeat until Vaughn explained the importance of the twelfth beat and the possibility that the décalé might be this beat or another "up" (off) beat.
So Vaughn gets 4, but I'm sorry for the others because really it was a cumulative effort. "
+3
1 hr
Veronica Coquard
France
France
Native in English
Works in field
France
Votre élégance révélée à sa juste valeur
Native in: English (Variants: UK, US)
Works in: French to English, English
offbeat
I haven't found any confirmation that "temps décalé" is an official musical term, but I have found confirmation that "offbeat" is.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-08-28 13:13:08 GMT)
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By the way, architran, it does seem more probable that "compas" refers to the tempo than the legs of the dancers. It sounds as if the music itself is being described, not the dance. "The offbeat is heard just before the first chord, which quickly catches up to the tempo, gains power, presence, meaning..." might be a viable translation.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-08-28 13:13:08 GMT)
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By the way, architran, it does seem more probable that "compas" refers to the tempo than the legs of the dancers. It sounds as if the music itself is being described, not the dance. "The offbeat is heard just before the first chord, which quickly catches up to the tempo, gains power, presence, meaning..." might be a viable translation.
Note from asker:
| We're getting close. And yes, now I think compas must be compás |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Marc Glinert
: Hmm we really need the thoughts of a proper musician (and not an amateur like myself) here. (continued above)
28 mins
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Thanks, Marc!
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| agree |
M_a_r_i_n_a
: perhaps you cannot find the confirmation on "temps décalé" because normally you say "rythme décalé" if i am not mistaken... Architran, take a look at a google search with "flamenco+off-beat)": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=offbeat Flamenco
1 hr
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Thank you, Marina!
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| agree |
Rob Grayson
: Yes, but beware: there's a difference between "offbeat" (usu. means "odd" or "unusual"as in "an offbeat comedy") and the musical term "the off beat", meaning the beat which doesn't carry the main accent. I believe you want the latter here.
2 hrs
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Yes, of course. Thank you, Rob!
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| neutral |
David Vaughn
: Consulting Groves, the standard music dictionary, off-beat [hyphenated] refers to a "beat" of the music, a black note in 4/4, a toe-tapping note, where here I believe we are dealing with the toe-up moment, between the "beats".
5 hrs
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+1
3 hrs
French term (edited):
le compas
the compas (rhythm)
Je suis d'accord que le compas c'est le rythme.
Référence Wikipedia:
"rhythm (compas) is perhaps the most fundamental distinguishing feature of the different flamenco forms. "
"The rhythmic patterns of the palos are also often called compás. A compás is characterised by a recurring pattern of beats and accents. "
Compás :
il s'agit de la carrure cyclique du rythme du chant flamenco.
Certains styles du flamenco ont un compás libre, que le chanteur va moduler au gré de son inspiration. C'est le cas de la Taranta. Cependant, la plupart des styles sont cadrés avec un rythme qui leur est propre. Il s'agit de structures qui fonctionnent en cycles de 4, 8 ou 12 temps.
On distingue le compás régulier du compás alterné.
Le compás régulier :
correspond aux structures rythmiques de 2 ou 4 temps par mesure dans les cycles de 4 ou 8 mesures;. Ils peuvent être lents ( tientos, tarantos ) ou rapides ( tanguillo, tango, rumba...)
Compás alterné:
c'est la structure rythmique la plus représentative du flamenco: dans un cycle de 12 temps, elle fait alterner des temps longs à des temps courts. Elle peut démarrer soit sur les temps 12, 1 etc. et se diviser en deux, trois ou quatre sous-parties.
styles concernés par le compás alterné: La soleá, la siguiriya, les alegrias et la bulería.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2006-08-28 14:25:28 GMT)
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So I'm not 100% sure, but I think it goes like this (this is not a translation, just an explanation...): the two "palmeros" start clapping their hands and create a rythmic pattern. Just after the first offbeat of the palmeros, an instrument (guitar? many guitars?) plays a chord and very quickly the instrument integrates the rythmic pattern given by the palmeros. With the time, the instrument becomes more and more present, louder, stronger...
Si tu vas sur video.google.com et cherches "flamenco", tu vas comprendre le texte tout de suite, car tous les flamenco sont un peu comme ça.
Référence Wikipedia:
"rhythm (compas) is perhaps the most fundamental distinguishing feature of the different flamenco forms. "
"The rhythmic patterns of the palos are also often called compás. A compás is characterised by a recurring pattern of beats and accents. "
Compás :
il s'agit de la carrure cyclique du rythme du chant flamenco.
Certains styles du flamenco ont un compás libre, que le chanteur va moduler au gré de son inspiration. C'est le cas de la Taranta. Cependant, la plupart des styles sont cadrés avec un rythme qui leur est propre. Il s'agit de structures qui fonctionnent en cycles de 4, 8 ou 12 temps.
On distingue le compás régulier du compás alterné.
Le compás régulier :
correspond aux structures rythmiques de 2 ou 4 temps par mesure dans les cycles de 4 ou 8 mesures;. Ils peuvent être lents ( tientos, tarantos ) ou rapides ( tanguillo, tango, rumba...)
Compás alterné:
c'est la structure rythmique la plus représentative du flamenco: dans un cycle de 12 temps, elle fait alterner des temps longs à des temps courts. Elle peut démarrer soit sur les temps 12, 1 etc. et se diviser en deux, trois ou quatre sous-parties.
styles concernés par le compás alterné: La soleá, la siguiriya, les alegrias et la bulería.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2006-08-28 14:25:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
So I'm not 100% sure, but I think it goes like this (this is not a translation, just an explanation...): the two "palmeros" start clapping their hands and create a rythmic pattern. Just after the first offbeat of the palmeros, an instrument (guitar? many guitars?) plays a chord and very quickly the instrument integrates the rythmic pattern given by the palmeros. With the time, the instrument becomes more and more present, louder, stronger...
Si tu vas sur video.google.com et cherches "flamenco", tu vas comprendre le texte tout de suite, car tous les flamenco sont un peu comme ça.
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
David Vaughn
: compas is definitely compas in English, but that doesn't seem to be the question?
3 hrs
|
+1
4 hrs
Janet Ross Snyder
Canada
Canada
Native in English
Works in field
Canada
Helping doctors learn from each other
Native in: English (Variant: US) 
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, English, and 1 more.
syncopation, syncopated rhythm
Larousse gives 'out of phase' for décalé
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Paul Hirsh
: this is the one! flamenco count starts on twelve, so any other term would be too foreign to flamenco
5 hrs
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Thanks, monxmood
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| neutral |
David Vaughn
: monxmood, seems to me that the author would have used "la syncope", but regardless, the 12th beat is not "the" syncopation, or "syncopation", but a specific effect, whereas syncopatiuon would refer to the entire compas, and not just "le" temps, but "les".
6 hrs
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Discussion
If this is the case, then I think offbeat is an inspired suggestion. I don’t even know if flamenco is typically in 4/4 time, but I would guess it is.