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Certidão de publicação de relação
---nos mais próximos em grau, uns em falta de outros
This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
Mar 2, 2017 16:53
7 yrs ago
7 viewers *
Portuguese term

de Tal

Portuguese to Italian Law/Patents Certificates, Diplomas, Licenses, CVs Sobrenomes
Bom dia.

Numa certidão de nascimento brasileira já bem antiga encontrei o seguinte:

“[Nome do registrado], etc., etc., neto paterno de [nome do avô] e de Sebastiana de Tal, etc.”

Acredito (embora o original não seja explícito) que esse “de Tal” não é o sobrenome verdadeiro da avó Sebastiana, mas que está ali porque o sobrenome era desconhecido naquele momento, ou porque quem fez o registro achou desnecessário mencionar. Como traduziriam isso em italiano?

É correto (e adequado nesse contexto) dizer “... nipote in linea retta, dal lato paterno, di [nome do avô] e di Sebastiana TAL DEI TALI”? Não sei se esse "Tal dei Tali" pode ser usado num documento formal.

Sugestões? Obrigado.
Proposed translations (Italian)
3 +1 Sebastiana [Cognome Ignoto]
3 della tal Sebastiana (che)/di colei che

Discussion

Paulo Marcon (asker) Mar 7, 2017:
Erzsébet "... the law does not provide us a room to do that". Sure, that applies here also, we cannot simply add information that is lacking in the original. I've talked to colleagues here, the opinions are the same as yours, the best in this case is to leave the name as it is.
Erzsébet Czopyk Mar 4, 2017:
@BV1 "I suspect the reason for the presence of this "surname" in the certificate"

As a translator, you can include your remarks in the footnote but at least in my country - you cannot amend the content of any official document (let's say, the law does not provide us a room to do that). In this case, I strongly recommend you to leave the name as it is and include your remark(s) in the footnote.
The strangest I've ever seem was an original certificate of birth with true Indian names in it (like Long Feather) http://www.chincoteaguenationip.org/drupal/node/74
Paulo Marcon (asker) Mar 3, 2017:
Erzsébet The person to whom the certificate refers was born in 1902 (though the copy I have is from 2016). The possibility that "de Tal", or a variant, be the real surname certainly cannot be excluded, but I suspect the reason for the presence of this "surname" in the certificate is more prosaic: the person who declared the birth didn't know, or didn't remember, the name of the child's grandmother! Thanks for all the help and the information on Hungary's and the former USSR's procedures when registering a child; very instructive.
Erzsébet Czopyk Mar 2, 2017:
What is the year of issue of the certificate? In former Soviet Union, if the father denied (for any reason) his paternity, the mother had the right to tell any, literally any name and surname which was entered instead of the real name of the father. In Hungary, in these cases the cell is left empty and you have 2 years to find the father or establish paternity via court.
If the paternity is not established, the mother's grandfather's surname will be entered and given to a child after 2 years. We have some weird laws.
Erzsébet Czopyk Mar 2, 2017:
@BV1 I know (its portuguese clarification was the first on the internet) but it does not exclude that it might to exists in reality, maybe it was originally de Taal?
Paulo Marcon (asker) Mar 2, 2017:
Erzsébet Sure, "Fulano de Tal" is used when we don't know how (or don't want) to name someone more properly. Sort of "John Doe".
Paulo Marcon (asker) Mar 2, 2017:
Maaike Não, infelizmente não tenho certeza de que o sobrenome não seja esse mesmo. Ficaria muito surpreso se fosse, mas não é impossível.
Maaike van Vlijmen Mar 2, 2017:
Forse puoi dire: Sebastiana [cognome sconosciuto]
Tens certeza que não esiste o nome?
Erzsébet Czopyk Mar 2, 2017:
De Tal surname - Geni
https://www.geni.com/surnames/de-tal -
There are 19 profiles for the de Tal family on Geni.com. Explore de Tal genealogy and family history in the World's Largest Family Tree.

https://www.facebook.com/mengano.fulanodetal
Mengano Fulano de Tal
Erzsébet Czopyk Mar 2, 2017:
? Acredito (embora o original não seja explícito) que esse “de Tal” não é o sobrenome verdadeiro da avó Sebastiana

Proposed translations

+1
14 mins

Sebastiana [Cognome Ignoto]

Eu colocaria entre parênteses quadrados a indicação do desconhecimento do sobrenome, como nota do tradutor.
Note from asker:
Michela, muitíssimo obrigado pela resposta. Conversando com colegas daqui cheguei à conclusão que, na dúvida (que persiste), é melhor deixar como está.
Peer comment(s):
agree Giovanna Alessandra Meloni
33 mins
Grazie, Giovanna!
Something went wrong...
1 day 22 mins

della tal Sebastiana (che)/di colei che

poderia ser : "della tal Sebastiana, colei che..." más você não colocou outra parte da frase, era uso na época do italiano antigo (estudos de filologia) dizer " la tal Sebastiana" no sentido de: "aquela Sebastiana (e não outra)" por exemplo nos casos de nomes duplos de família, ou de pessoas que possuiam uma caratéristica especial
Note from asker:
Helloemma, muito obrigado. Depois de muito pensar decidi deixar como está no original.
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