Glossary entry (derived from question below)
German term or phrase:
Schicksalssinfonie (Beethovens Fünfte)
English translation:
5th Symphony (sometimes known as the \"Victory Symphony\"
Added to glossary by
Klaus Urban
Feb 17, 2018 07:45
7 yrs ago
German term
Schicksalssinfonie (Beethovens Fünfte)
German to English
Art/Literary
Music
Sinfonien
Nach meinen Recherchen heißt sie im Englischen "Victory Symphony".
Bei You Tube wird auch eine "Siegessinfonie" angeboten, damit ist aber
"Wellington's Victory, or, the Battle of Vitoria (Wellingtons Sieg oder die Schlacht bei Vittoria)" gemeint.
Ist "Schicksalssinfonie" wirklich mit "Victory Symphony" zu "übersetzen"?
Bei You Tube wird auch eine "Siegessinfonie" angeboten, damit ist aber
"Wellington's Victory, or, the Battle of Vitoria (Wellingtons Sieg oder die Schlacht bei Vittoria)" gemeint.
Ist "Schicksalssinfonie" wirklich mit "Victory Symphony" zu "übersetzen"?
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +3 | 5th Symphony (sometimes known as the "Victory Symphony" |
Kristina Cosumano (X)
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| 5 +3 | Symphony of Fate |
Stephen Sadie
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| 3 | Destiny Symphony (Beethoven's Fifth) |
freekfluweel
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Proposed translations
+3
4 hrs
Selected
5th Symphony (sometimes known as the "Victory Symphony"
This question made me curious, so I did a quick query of my many classical musician friends, both American and British, on Facebook. The results: almost no one had ever heard of these or any other nicknames for Beethoven's 5th. The one exception was an older Englishman who wrote "For us Brits, it's the "Victory Symphony", since WWII, because of the opening, "bam bam bam baaaaaem", morse code for the letter V. Which was Churchills famous two-fingered sign for victory...". When I asked if this might be a generational thing, he answered "Absolutely."
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Note added at 5 hrs (2018-02-17 13:16:33 GMT)
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Another response, this time from a professional cellist and educator: "It was often referred to as the “Fate” symphony in late 19th / early 20th century music appreciation texts aimed at educating the unwashed masses, and this trope that has shown up occasionally in similar contexts ever since."
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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-02-17 19:06:31 GMT)
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I have heard back from more than 25 professional classical musicians so far, all university trained, all working for decades in classical music. "Fate Symphony" is most definitely not recognized by anyone, even the British respondents among them.
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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-02-17 19:07:28 GMT)
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Correction: "Symphony of Fate", or "Destiny Symphony": unheard of.
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Note added at 5 hrs (2018-02-17 13:16:33 GMT)
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Another response, this time from a professional cellist and educator: "It was often referred to as the “Fate” symphony in late 19th / early 20th century music appreciation texts aimed at educating the unwashed masses, and this trope that has shown up occasionally in similar contexts ever since."
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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-02-17 19:06:31 GMT)
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I have heard back from more than 25 professional classical musicians so far, all university trained, all working for decades in classical music. "Fate Symphony" is most definitely not recognized by anyone, even the British respondents among them.
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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-02-17 19:07:28 GMT)
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Correction: "Symphony of Fate", or "Destiny Symphony": unheard of.
Note from asker:
| Thank you, Kristina! |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Thomas Pfann
: Bonuspunkte fürs Eingehen auf Klaus Urbans Frage nach dem Begriff „Victory Symphony“. ;-)
43 mins
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Thank you!
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| agree |
Charles Davis
: I agree with those you have consulted. No nickname is used for this symphony nowadays. "Victory Symphony" is long out of date and I'm not sure it's even worth mentioning.
1 day 6 hrs
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You are probably right about that, but it still makes good material for CD booklet notes and the like.
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| agree |
Björn Vrooman
: It may be OK for CD booklets, but I don't think you're supposed to sound like you're a bit late to the party (the classical music one, that is).//Considering how many WWII movies Hollywood churns out every other year, I'm afraid I have to agree with you.
2 days 20 mins
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Thank you. I mean as a bit of trivia to fill space. What's 70 years, anyway, when the symphony itself is far older?
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you!
"
+3
26 mins
Stephen Sadie
Germany
Germany
Native in English
Works in field
Germany
Practical business experience, reliable
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, English to German
Related KudoZ points
:
18
Symphony of Fate
It is well-known and I am certain
Note from asker:
| Danke! |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
writeaway
: or just Fate. Symphony No. 5 in C minor ('Fate') Op. 67: Allegro con brio Boston Symphony Orchestra/Erich ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rghJEWAUqoE /well you have it personally from a respected, world class authority
55 mins
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If we refer to the standard classical reference GROVE, it is clearly "Fate" and not "Victory". I have the 20 volumes in my book cupboard
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| agree |
Katarina Peters
6 hrs
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Danke Katarina
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| agree |
Rachel Fell
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWAzuFI_hqM https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_"Fate"_(Bee...
5 days
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1 hr
freekfluweel
Netherlands
Netherlands
Netherlands
M.Sc. in Architecture, B.A.
Native in: Dutch 
Works in: Dutch to German, German to Dutch, English to Dutch, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Destiny Symphony (Beethoven's Fifth)
https://www.google.nl/search?q=destiny symphony&oq=destiny s...
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Note added at 1 uur (2018-02-17 09:43:54 GMT)
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http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/symphony5.html
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Note added at 2 uren (2018-02-17 09:46:52 GMT)
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The first record I bought at age 12 was Beethoven's Fifth with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Von Karajan, the first stereo-recording for Deutsche Grammophon!
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Note added at 1 uur (2018-02-17 09:43:54 GMT)
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http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/symphony5.html
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Note added at 2 uren (2018-02-17 09:46:52 GMT)
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The first record I bought at age 12 was Beethoven's Fifth with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Von Karajan, the first stereo-recording for Deutsche Grammophon!
Note from asker:
| Thank you! |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Stephen Sadie
: I love the Karajan recording, however it is only very rarely referred to as the Destiny Symphony
5 hrs
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Reference comments
2 hrs
Reference:
fwiw, hth
What are the names of Beethoven's symphonies?
Answer Wiki
No. 3 - Eroica
No. 5 - The Fate
No. 6 - Pastoral
No. 7 - Apotheosis of Dance
No. 8 - The Little Symphony
No. 9 - The Choral
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-names-of-Beethovens-symph...
Ludwig van Beethoven - G. Henle Verlag
www.henleusa.com/us/detail/index.html?Title=Symphony no. 5 ...
Beethoven is presumed to have completed his 5th Symphony in early 1808; today, it is one of the most famous works of classical music of all. Its nickname “Fate Symphony” was given to it posthumously by Beethoven's biographer Anton Schindler; a title which no longer plays a role in modern-day Beethoven scholarship.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2018-02-17 11:54:13 GMT)
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Pato Mátteri, Orchestra Conductor
Answered Jan 13, 2011
Only Symphonies Nos. 3 (in E-flat Major, Op. 55), 6 (F Major, Op. 68) and 9 (in D minor, Op. 125) have names that were given by the composer. Those are the "Eroica" (3rd Symphony), the "Pastorale" (6th Symphony) and the "Choral" Symphony, the 9th.
The "Apotheosis of Dance" name was given by Richard Wagner when talking about Beethoven's 7th Symphony, because of its rhythmic qualities.
"The Little Symphony" was an affectionate name Beethoven gave to his 8th Symphony ("my little symphony in F") when comparing it to his 6th, since both symphonies were written in the key of F Major (and are the only two that share a key).
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-names-of-Beethovens-symph...
Answer Wiki
No. 3 - Eroica
No. 5 - The Fate
No. 6 - Pastoral
No. 7 - Apotheosis of Dance
No. 8 - The Little Symphony
No. 9 - The Choral
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-names-of-Beethovens-symph...
Ludwig van Beethoven - G. Henle Verlag
www.henleusa.com/us/detail/index.html?Title=Symphony no. 5 ...
Beethoven is presumed to have completed his 5th Symphony in early 1808; today, it is one of the most famous works of classical music of all. Its nickname “Fate Symphony” was given to it posthumously by Beethoven's biographer Anton Schindler; a title which no longer plays a role in modern-day Beethoven scholarship.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2018-02-17 11:54:13 GMT)
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Pato Mátteri, Orchestra Conductor
Answered Jan 13, 2011
Only Symphonies Nos. 3 (in E-flat Major, Op. 55), 6 (F Major, Op. 68) and 9 (in D minor, Op. 125) have names that were given by the composer. Those are the "Eroica" (3rd Symphony), the "Pastorale" (6th Symphony) and the "Choral" Symphony, the 9th.
The "Apotheosis of Dance" name was given by Richard Wagner when talking about Beethoven's 7th Symphony, because of its rhythmic qualities.
"The Little Symphony" was an affectionate name Beethoven gave to his 8th Symphony ("my little symphony in F") when comparing it to his 6th, since both symphonies were written in the key of F Major (and are the only two that share a key).
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-names-of-Beethovens-symph...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| neutral |
freekfluweel
: The Eighth is called "Scherzo"...
24 mins
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"The Little Symphony" was an affectionate name Beethoven gave to his 8th Symphony ("my little symphony in F") when comparing it to his 6th, since both symphonies were written in the key of F Major (and are the only two that share a key). cf quora URL abov
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| agree |
Stephen Sadie
: with writeaway
4 hrs
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| neutral |
Charles Davis
: The key quotation here is "a title which no longer plays a role in modern-day Beethoven scholarship". Nor, for that matter, in concert programmes or writing for a popular audience. // I agree
1 day 8 hrs
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the actual key thing is that there is no official nickname for this symphony.
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Discussion
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Symphony-No-5-in-C-Minor-Op...
I quote:
"Beethoven himself allegedly described the figure as 'fate knocking at the door.' It is an evocative image, but the source of the attribution, Beethoven’s sometime friend Anton Schindler, was known for not letting facts get in the way of a good story."
The author is from the States. Perhaps that's why she goes on to say:
"In any event, the notion of the 'fate' theme, or 'fate' motif, has remained a popular one."
However, not once does the author use the word "fate" to describe the entire piece. Neither does Tom Service, a music journalist who has written about classical music for the Guardian since 1999:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/sep/16...
Best
"Symphony of Fate", or just "Fate", is certainly not a name in common use for the Fifth in English-speaking countries, at least nowadays, and I think it's only ever been used as a translation of the German name, which has been in common use since the nineteenth century. The origin of that name is Beethoven's alleged remark "So pocht das Schicksal an die Pforte", referring to the opening four-note theme of the first movement, but since this comment was reported by the notoriously unreliable Schindler it is normally dismissed by modern musicologists, who doubt Beethoven ever said it. It used to be common to refer to this theme as the "Fate" theme, and "fate knocking on the door" is quoted in a lot of older writing on the symphony.
In my opinion, no nickname should be given in English. At most, you might perhaps say "known in German as the 'Fate Symphony' or 'Symphony of Fate'". The only symphonies with names in common use in English are the Eroica, the Pastoral and the Choral.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Beethoven)
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/symphonies-of-beetho...
2) Schicksal, in its original meaning, is close to Destiny or Fortune, not Fate.
https://norse-mythology.org/concepts/destiny-wyrd-urd/
https://germanenherz.blogspot.de/2011/09/rune-raidho.html
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Fortuna-Roman-goddess
3) Not sure how Beethoven was using Schicksal. Probably this:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/5._Sinfonie_(Beethoven)
Als Goethe zu Napoleon von ‚Schicksal‘ sprach, erhielt er zur Antwort: ‚La politique c’est le destin!‘ [„Die Politik ist das Schicksal!“] Es ist unwahrscheinlich, dass dieser napoleonische, besser bonapartistische Citoyen-Begriff von ‚Schicksal‘ nicht derselbe wie der des Komponisten der Sinfonie auf Bonaparte gewesen wäre.