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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

Pour ampliation et par urgence

English translation:

expeditious/urgent certification (as true copy of discharge order)

Added to glossary by Yvonne Gallagher
Mar 15, 2019 09:41
6 yrs ago
31 viewers *
French term

Pour ampliation et par urgence

French to English Law/Patents Other Arrêté
Appears above the signature on an arrêté de sortie for a psychiatric patient produced in the 1940s. It's the "par urgence" part that I'd like clarification on. Is it simply that they were asked to produce the document as a matter of urgency?
Proposed translations (English)
3 +2 expeditious/urgent certification (as true copy of discharge order)
4 -2 a copy for expeditious distribution
4 -3 for validation and urgent action
References
L'ampliation ( signature "pour ampliatio...
Change log

Mar 18, 2019 07:16: Daryo changed "Language pair" from "French to English" to "English to French"

Mar 18, 2019 07:17: Daryo changed "Language pair" from "English to French" to "French to English"

Dec 1, 2019 04:08: Yvonne Gallagher Created KOG entry

Discussion

Daryo Mar 20, 2019:
"Bureaucracy for dummies" page 13: (book in preparation...)

"if an already typed document is labelled 'urgent' it means that the document itself has to be passed on to the recipient(s) urgently and/or that the decision enunciated in the document has to be executed as a matter of urgency"

NOTHING ELSE
Ph_B (X) Mar 18, 2019:
Agree with Yvonne As mentioned earlier in the discussion, the urgency applies to the "copying" of the document. Of course, that means indirectly that the person will be discharged as soon as all the paperwork has been taken care of, but that is not the main point of Pour ampliation et par urgence.
Yvonne Gallagher Mar 18, 2019:
ah, so it IS during the war years then? So, of course they want to get as many patients discharged as possible because of lack of food (see my link) and also to expedite removal to extermination camps. However, I think it's safer to stick to the urgency of certifying the discharge document. Once that's done, the rest can follow. Very sad. Is this an historical account?
Fiona Marshall (asker) Mar 17, 2019:
A bit more context I think we're all in agreement that something needs to be done quickly but we don't know what. The document mentions the patient having to be discharged immediately. But then again, the people signing it are the ones ordering his discharge rather than carrying it out. Which leads me back to the idea that maybe "par urgence" refers to how quickly the document needed to be produced (and in this case, it was produced on the day after a document certifying that the patient was "cured" and could be released, so pretty quickly). It certainly seems to be a set phrase, but I can't find any evidence of it being used elsewhere.
Further context: The patient in question is a Jewish man who is being discharged potentially just so he can be sent to a camp. Sad stuff.
Francois Boye Mar 16, 2019:
the said 'arrêté' is a document that needs to be reproduced for distribution to another person at least
patrickfor Mar 16, 2019:
@Ph-B : @asker wrote it is an "arrêté de sortie for a psychiatric patient " that speaks for itself I think.
Ph_B (X) Mar 16, 2019:
All we know for certain is that a true copy of the document must be made. As for the urgency, it could apply either to getting that person out or to getting the copy done. My feeling is that if it's about getting the person out, it would be mentioned in the doc itself (is it?) - something as important as that wouldn't just be mentioned at the end of the document. It looks as if it's part of a set phrase, perhaps: get that copy done urgently (so it can be sent to someone or put in a different file from the original or stamped by another official or whatever), so that the procedure is duly completed without delay and that whoever lets the person out can do so in the knowledge that it's all legal.
patrickfor Mar 16, 2019:
I think Daryo is right: Take this person out and as quickly as possible!
B D Finch Mar 15, 2019:
Suggestion Produced as an urgently required true copy?
philgoddard Mar 15, 2019:
I agree with your interpretation, Ph_B. I can't think of a concise way of expressing it, though. The literal meaning of "par urgence" is "due to urgency".
Ph_B (X) Mar 15, 2019:
Urgence = DR. CIVIL. ,,Caractère d'un état de fait susceptible d'entraîner un préjudice irréparable s'il n'y est porté remède à bref délai`(TLFi) Préjudice irréparable might explain why it was urgent to copy the document: some damage will occur if it's not copied pronto.
Daryo Mar 15, 2019:
I think that the "urgency" was to apply/execute the decision contained in the document "as a matter of urgency" i.e. release this psychiatric patient without any further ado.

Proposed translations

+2
2 days 2 hrs
Selected

expeditious/urgent certification (as true copy of discharge order)

It's unclear because of lack of context if this is about the urgent discharge (or release) of the patient but it would seem so.

However, what is certain is that the release order (document) must be certified as a true copy. At that time, patients were kept in involuntary confinement unless someone signed a discharge (release) order

If this was during the 1940s it could have been during the war years or after when it was important to discharge as many psychiatric patients as possible as there was insufficient food and patients were starving in some cases. See here:

https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_VING_076_0099--the-ment...

https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/43/suppl_1/i43/2938629

https://ps.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ps.201...

and more modern times
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5618891/

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 3 hrs (2019-03-17 12:48:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://www.wordreference.com/fren/ampliation
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : what is "urgent" is not the "certification" but the action prescribed by the document. // it doesn't need to be spelled out - same as you don't need to tell a linguist that "interpreting" is talking, not writing ...
19 hrs
we don't know that for sure, unless asker can confirm from their full context//seems like you keep changing your mind about meaning
agree Ph_B (X) : See discussion.
1 day 2 hrs
yes, thank you!
disagree Francois Boye : DR. ADMIN. ,,Copie d'une décision administrative délivrée par l'autorité compétente et revêtue d'une signature officielle.`` (Barr. 1967). Ampliation d'un arrêté préfectoral (Nouv. Lar. ill.). Synon. vieilli acte d'ampliation ou acte ampliatif
2 days 13 hrs
tit-for-tat disagree. No linguistic reason.//We're looking for En not Fr? And asking about what "urgent" implies here? ampliation=certified copy here: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/176...
agree writeaway : don't see how this is wrong. but hey it's Kudozzzzzzz
18 days
Yezz indeed! Thanks:-)
agree GILLES MEUNIER
24 days
Many thanks:-)
agree Michael Confais (X)
254 days
Many thanks:-)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-3
2 days 22 hrs

for validation and urgent action

or
for certification (of the validity of the document) and urgent (action)

Here dates are important: the 1940's "pour ampliation"didn't mean the same as today - see refs.

At that time "pour ampliation" meant "I (the signatory) confirm that this is a copy of a valid document - duly signed by an authorised person"

Notice that IT'S NOT the same as "copie conforme" which simply means "an exact copy of the original" and nothing more - nothing to say that the original could not be a worthless fake signed by Mickey Mouse.

OTOH the "par urgence" part means the same as today: "the matter is urgent" (no connections with how quickly the document was prepared)

Urgence = DR. CIVIL. ,,Caractère d'un état de fait susceptible d'entraîner un préjudice irréparable s'il n'y est porté remède à bref délai`(TLFi)

"le remède" is not a piece of paper prepared in great haste (and then possibly ignored for ages) but urgent action i.e. here "patient to be released urgently" [ever heard of decisions that not even worth the paper they are printed on? As in "prepared/made urgently" but executed without any urgency ...]
Peer comment(s):
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : Over-translation. If the document is certified urgently perhaps patient will be discharged urgently but it doesn't say that.//Translate what's actually there! Not to do with "preparing " document but validation of true copy//I never mentioned Xerox!
5 hrs
What the point of finding the meaning of a term as it was at the time when it was used if you are going to blissfully ignore it? FOI at that time a "computer" was a person doing calculations with pen and paper, and an abacus if "high tech".
disagree Francois Boye : DR. ADMIN. ,,Copie d'une décision administrative délivrée par l'autorité compétente et revêtue d'une signature officielle.`` (Barr. 1967). Ampliation d'un arrêté préfectoral (Nouv. Lar. ill.). Synon. vieilli acte d'ampliation ou acte ampliatif
1 day 18 hrs
??? WHERE is the contradiction??? Have you again misinterpreted a perfectly valid reference?
disagree GILLES MEUNIER : calque insignifiant
23 days
Something went wrong...
-2
3 days 3 hrs

a copy for expeditious distribution

My translation is consistent with the definition of 'ampliation' below

− DR. ADMIN. ,,Copie d'une décision administrative délivrée par l'autorité compétente et revêtue d'une signature officielle.`` (Barr. 1967). Ampliation d'un arrêté préfectoral (Nouv. Lar. ill.). Synon. vieilli acte d'ampliation ou acte ampliatif :
2. Le représentant Duputz reçut quelques heures plus tard de nos mains ampliation du décret... V. Hugo, Histoire d'un crime,1877, p. 7.

3. ... déjà à plusieurs reprises, poursuivi de l'idée fixe de repartir le lendemain muni de ses ampliations, il s'était fait envoyer de l'argent; des mandats de cinquante francs, laborieusement arrachés à l'âpre épargne de la conservatrice. G. Courteline, Messieurs les ronds-de-cuir,1893, 5etabl., pp. 183-184.

Source: Le Dictionnaire TLFI
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : you missed the KEY point: at that time "pour ampliation' meant to confirm that the original document was properly signed i.e. valid. + it's NOT "the distribution" of the document that is urgent, but the action ordered in it
19 hrs
− DR. ADMIN. ,,Copie d'une décision administrative délivrée par l'autorité compétente et revêtue d'une signature officielle.`` (Barr. 1967). Ampliation d'un arrêté préfectoral (Nouv. Lar. ill.). Synon. vieilli acte d'ampliation ou acte ampliatif :
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : "copy" is too vague and your "explanation" does not back "distribution" at all" (it's wrong!)//Why keep reposting the same definition of one word, when it doesn't back your answer, and not even answer the actual question asked?
22 hrs
− DR. ADMIN. ,,Copie d'une décision administrative délivrée par l'autorité compétente et revêtue d'une signature officielle.`` (Barr. 1967). Ampliation d'un arrêté préfectoral (Nouv. Lar. ill.). Synon. vieilli acte d'ampliation ou acte ampliatif :
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

2 hrs
Reference:

L'ampliation ( signature "pour ampliation") est née de l'impossibilité de faire des copies signées d'un acte officiel à l'époque où la photocopie n'existait pas. L'autorité signait l'acte original, qui était conservé par l'administration. Cet original était copié à la main, et plus tard de façon dactylographiée, autant de fois que de besoin, parfois même bien après que l'auteur ne soit plus en fonction.

La copie était dépourvue de la signature de l'auteur original, mais portait la mention "signé" devant le nom de l'auteur de l'acte original. Dépourvue de la signature de l'auteur, elle ne pouvait être certifiée conforme. L'agent de l'administration qui procédait à la notification de la copie de acte, signait alors la copie "pour ampliation". Cela authentifiait la copie en attestant que le document original portait bien cette signature.

Il est donc normal et légal que l'ampliation ne comporte pas la signature de l'auteur de l'acte original5.

Toutefois, au début du xixe siècle et jusqu'à l'invention de la photocopie, les copies carbones, qui comportaient une décalque de la signature de l'auteur, faisaient quand même l’objet d'une ampliation. De même pour les premières photocopies apparues progressivement dans les années 1960. L'usage a ensuite été abandonnée plus ou moins vite.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampliation
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral Ph_B (X) : "It's the "par urgence" part that I'd like clarification on..." :-)
1 min
yes, but it helps to know what was the meaning of the other half of the term at that time... Context?
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : as Ph_B said above, it's about the "par urgence" part that I'd like clarification on..." We already know what 'ampliation' means//??
3 days 23 hrs
"we already know all this"? I wasn't aware that the usual lot of translators is to work day in day out on archive documents dating from 80-odd years ago ... no need to bother with the evolution of the language that happened in the meantime, then?
Something went wrong...
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