This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
May 17, 2011 17:04
13 yrs ago
14 viewers *
French term

étage noble

Non-PRO French to English Bus/Financial Construction / Civil Engineering Property for sale
Part of a questionnaire asking potential house buyers what kind of property they are looking for
(in France)

Etage « noble » ou élevé
Change log

May 18, 2011 13:57: Stéphanie Soudais (X) changed "Term asked" from "Etage noble" to "étage noble"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (1): Lara Barnett

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Discussion

AllegroTrans (asker) May 17, 2011:
And of course everyone deserves points, but KudoZ doesn't let me do this!!
AllegroTrans (asker) May 17, 2011:
Had to submit this I finally used "étage noble" or elevated main floor (quotes as shown here). I thought that people searching for this type of property in France would be likely to know the FR term and if this estate agent's form is being used, say, in London or Berlin, then the English conveys the idea.
Thank you for all contributions, these were very helpful.
Lara Barnett May 17, 2011:
noble floor I thought that too then I thought "aristocratic floor" (as suggested in my extra note of a couple of hours ago as I thought 'Noble' risked implying other unnecessary connotations.
B D Finch May 17, 2011:
Paris or London I think that this might be the raised ground floor in London, but the first floor in Paris. By the 19th century, drawing rooms were probably more "noble" than parlours in England.
Lara Barnett May 17, 2011:
Untranslated word Google hits usually go down to usage of a term. If a phrase was "koined" and eventually used, it might become a usable term for the future though. // Just a thought, I'm not making reference to anybodies suggestions (or mine).
AllegroTrans (asker) May 17, 2011:
Further googling of the French term show it being used in property in both Paris and London, untranslated, so presumably bourgeois Britons (if there are any left) would understand this term. If anyone wants to suggest "Etage noble" (inverted commas) please go ahead and let's see how many agrees we get.
AllegroTrans (asker) May 17, 2011:
Thanks Tony Have just googled for it and the only UK refs I could find were about areas for milking cows!!
Tony M May 17, 2011:
Personally, I don't think so That sounds particularly American to me, and not only quaint, but also un-explicit to my UK ears. Also doesn't sound very applicable to FR buildings, which might have 'salons'...
Lara Barnett May 17, 2011:
Parlour floor I reckon if you said "parlour floor" it would need to be part of a description, for example: "The Etage Noble, similar to the English Parlour Floor found in townhouses..." . /// But on the other hand not everybody knows what a "parlour floor" is anyway.
AllegroTrans (asker) May 17, 2011:
@ Tony etc. Have just re-read the rest of the form and it does appear that it relates to exclusive apartments. Sorry I didn't clarify this at first. It's still tricky to find a descriptive EN expression that is comprehensible. I like cc's "parlo(u)r floor" but does this work in Europe??
AllegroTrans (asker) May 17, 2011:
@ Tony Thanks. I do rather think this agency (they search for properties for you) is fairly up-market, maybe even exclusive. I will have another look on their website.
Lara Barnett May 17, 2011:
@ AllegroTrans I suppose so. But I just assumed that was it was written in France (seeing as it is in French), it was written with French properties in mind. Therefore the intention of the person who drew up the question was with reference to their sort of Etage noble - and your questions says "kind of property they are looking for (in France)."
AllegroTrans (asker) May 17, 2011:
@ Lara It's not relevant to any particular property - it's on a potential buyer's "wish list" i.e. you tick one of the boxes - essential - important - not important
Lara Barnett May 17, 2011:
@ Asker Wouldn't it only be relevant to which floor it is in the actual French property being sold? Which is why I thought it would be helpful to use a gloss referencing historical/cultural issue as well.
AllegroTrans (asker) May 17, 2011:
Good refs etc so far - thanks! and it is what I suspected - a hark back to the bourgeois era. But how do I render this as a modern term?
I am not sure now whether the potential house buyers will be just in France or perhaps in other countries also,

Proposed translations

8 mins
French term (edited): Etage noble

Second, or historically most desirable, floor...

"The “étage noble”
The second floor or "étage noble" was for the wealthiest families who could afford to live high enough from the road to avoid noise and dirt but without too many stairs to climb (there were no elevators in those days). Therefore the most spacious apartments with high ceilings and large balconies can be found on this level (photo 4). The floor plans reflect the aristocratic apartments of the 18th century: salon, dining rooms and bedrooms lie behind the main facade, while secondary rooms such as the kitchen and bathroom face the courtyard ( photo 5). Ornamentation is minimal and applied to the balconies."
http://www.khs.fr/ParisArchives.cfm?IDTexteNewsArchives=162


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Note added at 14 mins (2011-05-17 17:19:39 GMT)
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""The second floor or étage noble was for the wealthiest families..."
http://www.intransit-international.com/housing_paris_apartme...

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Note added at 59 mins (2011-05-17 18:04:06 GMT)
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Or you could say:

"A lower more spacious floor" for means of a compact phrase.

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Note added at 1 hr (2011-05-17 18:06:20 GMT)
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OR:

"A spacious mid-height floor" in order to cover the problem of which floor if 2nd vs 3rd is an issue.

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Note added at 1 hr (2011-05-17 18:23:27 GMT)
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Or maybe "2nd Aristocratic floor" or "1st Aristocratic floor" which might condense the ideas, even though not fully explaining the complete idea, just giving the essentials maybe.
"A monumental staircase leads to the ARISTOCRATIC FLOOR where rooms are richly filled with ..."
http://www.trips2italy.com/Things_To_Do_In_Genoa
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : 'second floor' only in the US, otherwise 'first floor' in the UK and Europe; however, generally considered to be the 'main floor' / Yes, but your ref. is AE!
3 mins
But surely the reference is to French properties: "The second floor or étage noble was for the wealthiest families " http://www.intransit-international.com/housing_paris_apartme... // It's a French website with a British/English flag
Something went wrong...
+1
14 mins

piano nobile

The official Italian architectural term, at least when applied to historic buildings — however, far from sure how comfortably this would sit in a modern context?

Otherwise perhaps 'elevated main floor'? Or even 'elevated ground floor', even though that might seem to be a contradiction in terms!

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Note added at 30 minutes (2011-05-17 17:35:00 GMT)
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Indeed... but then I'd hope said man on Clapham omnibus wouldn't be looking to buy a Paris town mansion, but rather a timeshare in Morecombe... ;-)

Seriously though, yes, of course you're right... but then I'm not sure there's any 'man-in the street' (or omnibus) term to describe this very middle-/upper-class concept — we just sort of take it for granted that London town houses, for example, have their entrances up steps; and it does really depend a lot on just what level they're talking about — simply 'elevated ground floors', or something much more up-market along the lines of palaces etc.?

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Note added at 38 minutes (2011-05-17 17:43:22 GMT)
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Right, in the light of that important extra context (!), I'd certainly say 'elevated main floor': "Is it important to you to that the house has an elevated main floor?"

Or "main floor elevated above street level"



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Note added at 1 heure (2011-05-17 18:39:23 GMT)
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OK, then if you don't like 'piano nobile', perhaps 'étage noble' will suit, as you suggest... FR terms perhaps go down better with the pretentious EN than IT ones ;-)
Note from asker:
Does the man on the Clapham omnibus understand piano nobile? he probably thinks it is an opera, or maybe an old Beatles number
Peer comment(s):

agree B D Finch : I think that, if the point is that this floor has higher ceilings and larger windows, it is best to use an architectural term. In England, I think it was more usually a raised ground floor than the first floor.
1 hr
Thanks, Barbara! I think it's always really the 'ground' floor (i.e. the main floor where you go in), even if it is raised up from the ground (good for avoiding flooding in Venice too!)
neutral cc in nyc : No for piano nobile; even though it is correct technically, it sounds like a relative of the pianoforte. Maybe for "elevated main floor" or "étage noble."
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr
French term (edited): Etage noble

(one of the) lower floor(s)

Really, such floors are no longer reserved to "nobles" or, most likely, the bourgeois class of the 19th century.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Tony M : But that completely misses the whole point of why the property hunters are being asked the question!
5 mins
The whole point is to hunt for lower floors.
Something went wrong...
21 mins

parlor floor

The right term probably depends on your audience. I'm familiar with Am-English, especially as used in New York.

The following reference from "The Townhouse Specialist" sounds right to me for townhouses and some brownstones in metropolitan areas:

Parlor Floor: This is the second floor in a townhouse. In its original form, the building's front steps accessed the parlor floor. The parlor is traditionally the grandest floor in the townhouse and almost always has the building's highest ceilings. Historically, these floors were primarily used for entertaining with two rooms separated by a staircase. These rooms were usually Living Rooms, Libraries or Formal Dining Rooms.
http://www.thetownhousespecialist.com/terminology.htm

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Note added at 51 mins (2011-05-17 17:55:56 GMT)
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Note: Many (perhaps even most) of these townhouses are no longer single-family dwellings, and have been divided into many apartments – in some cases even more than one apartment per floor. In these cases, there are no longer formal parlors (only intact mansions in NYC boast front and back parlors). But rooms on the original "parlor" floor usually have higher ceilings – as well as more architectural detail, more ornamentation, larger windows, etc. – which make them especially desirable.

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Note added at 1 hr (2011-05-17 18:59:54 GMT)
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For other audiences, perhaps:

principal floor

Here are some UK references:

Osterley Park
http://www.hypatia.demon.co.uk/ost2006/tour_principal_2.html

Palace of Westmister
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/crace/p/007000000000...

Benjamin Dean Wyatt floorplan
http://www.myartprints.co.uk/a/wyatt-benjamin-dean/plan-of-t...


The following websites also use the term "principal floor":
Hamilton Palace http://hamilton.rcahms.gov.uk/interiors20.html
Merchants House http://www.myartprints.co.uk/a/wyatt-benjamin-dean/plan-of-t...

And this one explains uses the term "principal floor" to explain "piano nobile":
Stowe House
http://www.stowe.co.uk/house/visiting-stowe/the-state-rooms


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Note added at 2 hrs (2011-05-17 19:33:10 GMT)
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Latest and greatest idea (after reading Tony's comment):

"noble" floor

Explanation: The source text uses the very French term étage with "noble" in quotes. Why not do the same in English – that is, use English "noble" [in quotes] + floor.



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Note added at 3 hrs (2011-05-17 20:06:30 GMT)
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Fourth idea:

raised principal floor

Some references

British Listed Buildings http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/sc-38033-158-high-st...
Charlwood Road & Lifford Street Conservation Area Appraisal and Management Strategy http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/download/1972/charlwood_rd_and_...
Decoding Homes and Houses http://books.google.com/books?id=Hn_yL1QV4FgC&pg=PA162&lpg=P...
Note from asker:
Thanks for this explanation - it's definitely for Europeans
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : 'principal floor' is fine, but it misses out the fact that it is elevated, which is the key point we started with. "Is it important for your flat to have a principal floor?" / I strongly suspect not: 'elevated' is what 'piano nobile' means
1 hr
Edited reply: But wouldn't the "elevated" part be rendered by the rest of the phrase., so that "étage « noble » ou élevé" would become "elevated principal floor"?
Something went wrong...
3 hrs
French term (edited): Etage noble

prestig(e)(ious) floor

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Étage_(architecture) points out that the étage noble has varied over the years. I don't think (m)any modern buildings differentiate. And with modern buildings having lifts, there is no longer any reason to depreciate higher storeys, especially in densely built-up areas where the traditional "Paris" étage noble, the first (or second) floor, is likely to be deprived of full daylight much of the time.

Therefore I tend to see the "or" here as inclusive (optional), not exclusive, so that étage noble is pretty much synonymous with étage élevé. Just think of the prestige of penthouse suites and particularly at this time of Room 2806 of the New York Sofitel where, at $3000 a night, at least one occupant may have thought the maid and two orifices were included in the price.

Le Corbusier achète pour son usage personnel le septième étage et le huitième étage où il élève l'appartement-atelier qui lui servira de résidence parisienne jusqu'à son décès en 1965.
La hiérarchisation traditionnelle des immeubles haussmanniens est bouleversée.
L'étage noble n'est plus le premier niveau au-dessus de l'entresol, mais le dernier étage qui jouit de la vue et de la lumière
. C'est là que Le Corbusier pose, sur les 120 mètres carrés du toit terrasse, son propre appartement traversant qui s'élève sur deux niveaux.
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=125761270831534

Un étage plus ou moins élevé dans un même immeuble a une influence importante sur la luminosité de l’appartement. En général, un bien situé en rez-de-chaussée ou au premier étage (pourtant à une époque considéré comme un étage noble, celui du propriétaire de l’immeuble) vaut moins cher que le même situé dans les étages supérieurs
http://www.toutsurlimmo.com/dossiers/valeur/8-points-cle-pou...
Something went wrong...
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