French term
étage noble
(in France)
Etage « noble » ou élevé
4 | Second, or historically most desirable, floor... | Lara Barnett |
3 +1 | piano nobile | Tony M |
4 | parlor floor | cc in nyc |
4 | prestig(e)(ious) floor | Bourth (X) |
4 -1 | (one of the) lower floor(s) | Jean Lachaud |
May 18, 2011 13:57: Stéphanie Soudais (X) changed "Term asked" from "Etage noble" to "étage noble"
PRO (1): Lara Barnett
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Proposed translations
Second, or historically most desirable, floor...
The second floor or "étage noble" was for the wealthiest families who could afford to live high enough from the road to avoid noise and dirt but without too many stairs to climb (there were no elevators in those days). Therefore the most spacious apartments with high ceilings and large balconies can be found on this level (photo 4). The floor plans reflect the aristocratic apartments of the 18th century: salon, dining rooms and bedrooms lie behind the main facade, while secondary rooms such as the kitchen and bathroom face the courtyard ( photo 5). Ornamentation is minimal and applied to the balconies."
http://www.khs.fr/ParisArchives.cfm?IDTexteNewsArchives=162
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Note added at 14 mins (2011-05-17 17:19:39 GMT)
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""The second floor or étage noble was for the wealthiest families..."
http://www.intransit-international.com/housing_paris_apartme...
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Note added at 59 mins (2011-05-17 18:04:06 GMT)
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Or you could say:
"A lower more spacious floor" for means of a compact phrase.
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-05-17 18:06:20 GMT)
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OR:
"A spacious mid-height floor" in order to cover the problem of which floor if 2nd vs 3rd is an issue.
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-05-17 18:23:27 GMT)
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Or maybe "2nd Aristocratic floor" or "1st Aristocratic floor" which might condense the ideas, even though not fully explaining the complete idea, just giving the essentials maybe.
"A monumental staircase leads to the ARISTOCRATIC FLOOR where rooms are richly filled with ..."
http://www.trips2italy.com/Things_To_Do_In_Genoa
neutral |
Tony M
: 'second floor' only in the US, otherwise 'first floor' in the UK and Europe; however, generally considered to be the 'main floor' / Yes, but your ref. is AE!
3 mins
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But surely the reference is to French properties: "The second floor or étage noble was for the wealthiest families " http://www.intransit-international.com/housing_paris_apartme... // It's a French website with a British/English flag
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piano nobile
Otherwise perhaps 'elevated main floor'? Or even 'elevated ground floor', even though that might seem to be a contradiction in terms!
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Note added at 30 minutes (2011-05-17 17:35:00 GMT)
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Indeed... but then I'd hope said man on Clapham omnibus wouldn't be looking to buy a Paris town mansion, but rather a timeshare in Morecombe... ;-)
Seriously though, yes, of course you're right... but then I'm not sure there's any 'man-in the street' (or omnibus) term to describe this very middle-/upper-class concept — we just sort of take it for granted that London town houses, for example, have their entrances up steps; and it does really depend a lot on just what level they're talking about — simply 'elevated ground floors', or something much more up-market along the lines of palaces etc.?
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Note added at 38 minutes (2011-05-17 17:43:22 GMT)
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Right, in the light of that important extra context (!), I'd certainly say 'elevated main floor': "Is it important to you to that the house has an elevated main floor?"
Or "main floor elevated above street level"
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Note added at 1 heure (2011-05-17 18:39:23 GMT)
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OK, then if you don't like 'piano nobile', perhaps 'étage noble' will suit, as you suggest... FR terms perhaps go down better with the pretentious EN than IT ones ;-)
Does the man on the Clapham omnibus understand piano nobile? he probably thinks it is an opera, or maybe an old Beatles number |
agree |
B D Finch
: I think that, if the point is that this floor has higher ceilings and larger windows, it is best to use an architectural term. In England, I think it was more usually a raised ground floor than the first floor.
1 hr
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Thanks, Barbara! I think it's always really the 'ground' floor (i.e. the main floor where you go in), even if it is raised up from the ground (good for avoiding flooding in Venice too!)
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neutral |
cc in nyc
: No for piano nobile; even though it is correct technically, it sounds like a relative of the pianoforte.
Maybe for "elevated main floor" or "étage noble."
2 hrs
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(one of the) lower floor(s)
disagree |
Tony M
: But that completely misses the whole point of why the property hunters are being asked the question!
5 mins
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The whole point is to hunt for lower floors.
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parlor floor
The following reference from "The Townhouse Specialist" sounds right to me for townhouses and some brownstones in metropolitan areas:
Parlor Floor: This is the second floor in a townhouse. In its original form, the building's front steps accessed the parlor floor. The parlor is traditionally the grandest floor in the townhouse and almost always has the building's highest ceilings. Historically, these floors were primarily used for entertaining with two rooms separated by a staircase. These rooms were usually Living Rooms, Libraries or Formal Dining Rooms.
http://www.thetownhousespecialist.com/terminology.htm
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Note added at 51 mins (2011-05-17 17:55:56 GMT)
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Note: Many (perhaps even most) of these townhouses are no longer single-family dwellings, and have been divided into many apartments – in some cases even more than one apartment per floor. In these cases, there are no longer formal parlors (only intact mansions in NYC boast front and back parlors). But rooms on the original "parlor" floor usually have higher ceilings – as well as more architectural detail, more ornamentation, larger windows, etc. – which make them especially desirable.
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-05-17 18:59:54 GMT)
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For other audiences, perhaps:
principal floor
Here are some UK references:
Osterley Park
http://www.hypatia.demon.co.uk/ost2006/tour_principal_2.html
Palace of Westmister
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/crace/p/007000000000...
Benjamin Dean Wyatt floorplan
http://www.myartprints.co.uk/a/wyatt-benjamin-dean/plan-of-t...
The following websites also use the term "principal floor":
Hamilton Palace http://hamilton.rcahms.gov.uk/interiors20.html
Merchants House http://www.myartprints.co.uk/a/wyatt-benjamin-dean/plan-of-t...
And this one explains uses the term "principal floor" to explain "piano nobile":
Stowe House
http://www.stowe.co.uk/house/visiting-stowe/the-state-rooms
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Note added at 2 hrs (2011-05-17 19:33:10 GMT)
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Latest and greatest idea (after reading Tony's comment):
"noble" floor
Explanation: The source text uses the very French term étage with "noble" in quotes. Why not do the same in English – that is, use English "noble" [in quotes] + floor.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2011-05-17 20:06:30 GMT)
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Fourth idea:
raised principal floor
Some references
British Listed Buildings http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/sc-38033-158-high-st...
Charlwood Road & Lifford Street Conservation Area Appraisal and Management Strategy http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/download/1972/charlwood_rd_and_...
Decoding Homes and Houses http://books.google.com/books?id=Hn_yL1QV4FgC&pg=PA162&lpg=P...
Thanks for this explanation - it's definitely for Europeans |
neutral |
Tony M
: 'principal floor' is fine, but it misses out the fact that it is elevated, which is the key point we started with. "Is it important for your flat to have a principal floor?" / I strongly suspect not: 'elevated' is what 'piano nobile' means
1 hr
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Edited reply: But wouldn't the "elevated" part be rendered by the rest of the phrase., so that "étage « noble » ou élevé" would become "elevated principal floor"?
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prestig(e)(ious) floor
Therefore I tend to see the "or" here as inclusive (optional), not exclusive, so that étage noble is pretty much synonymous with étage élevé. Just think of the prestige of penthouse suites and particularly at this time of Room 2806 of the New York Sofitel where, at $3000 a night, at least one occupant may have thought the maid and two orifices were included in the price.
Le Corbusier achète pour son usage personnel le septième étage et le huitième étage où il élève l'appartement-atelier qui lui servira de résidence parisienne jusqu'à son décès en 1965.
La hiérarchisation traditionnelle des immeubles haussmanniens est bouleversée.
L'étage noble n'est plus le premier niveau au-dessus de l'entresol, mais le dernier étage qui jouit de la vue et de la lumière. C'est là que Le Corbusier pose, sur les 120 mètres carrés du toit terrasse, son propre appartement traversant qui s'élève sur deux niveaux.
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=125761270831534
Un étage plus ou moins élevé dans un même immeuble a une influence importante sur la luminosité de l’appartement. En général, un bien situé en rez-de-chaussée ou au premier étage (pourtant à une époque considéré comme un étage noble, celui du propriétaire de l’immeuble) vaut moins cher que le même situé dans les étages supérieurs
http://www.toutsurlimmo.com/dossiers/valeur/8-points-cle-pou...
Discussion
Thank you for all contributions, these were very helpful.
I am not sure now whether the potential house buyers will be just in France or perhaps in other countries also,