Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
pli à cuvette
English translation:
trough fold
Added to glossary by
Charles Davis
May 9, 2015 11:11
9 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
United Kingdom
Pli à cuvette
French to English
Art/Literary
Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting
Sculpture
This term comes up in a children's puzzle book to accompany a sculpting exhibition.
The "plis en cuvette" are described as forming "arcs de cercle très creusés"
No images are given.
The "plis en cuvette" are described as forming "arcs de cercle très creusés"
No images are given.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +1 | trough fold |
Charles Davis
|
| 3 | alternating folds |
Atelier de Mots
|
| 3 | alternating nested folds |
Atelier de Mots
|
| 2 | looped or looping fold |
Helen Shiner
|
Change log
May 20, 2015 13:40: Charles Davis Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+1
1 hr
Selected
trough fold
My way into this is through Nicolas de Verdun.
"C'est en Moselle, avec Nicolas de Verdun, que survient une véritable révolution stylistique. La châsse des Rois mages de Cologne se libère des contraintes romanes avec une mise en page franchissant le cadre qui enserrait les motifs romans. Les drapés, avec leurs plis « en cuvette » hérités des plis « mouillés » antiques, donnent aux figures une liberté et un naturalisme nouveaux. Ainsi assiste-t-on à la naissance du « style 1200 », incarné par les créations de Nicolas de Verdun."
http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/divers/orfèvrerie/75252
"It does not seem likely that the classical wet-fold drapery style of Nicholas had originated in monumental painting or even that it had developed in monumental painting parallel to book illumination, goldsmith's work, and sculpture"
https://books.google.es/books?id=1RIAeAMUJywC&pg=PA100&lpg=P...
"Nicholas's work, both two- and three-dimensional, shows a new interest in the natural proportioning of the human body, the fall of cloth garments over it, and a type of soft drapery fold called Muldenfaltenstil (trough fold style), which is smoothly curved and unlike the angular, inorganic drapery found in Romanesque art"
https://books.google.es/books?id=p4uHav3mZLsC&pg=PA567&lpg=P...
"He considered the Lewis Psalter to be painted in a second-phase Muldenfaltenstil ("trough fold style") dating from 1220-1230."
https://books.google.es/books?id=HbP7JvQy3lUC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA...
OK, a little earlier than yours, but not much.
Trough for cuvette makes sense.
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Note added at 1 hr (2015-05-09 12:51:46 GMT)
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By the way, for those who may see this and not realise why we're talking about medieval drapery, see the discussion in the question on "pli froissé"
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/art_arts_crafts_...
To complete the circle:
"Ces rides et dépressions de surface constituent le « Muldenfaltenstil », style des plis en cuvette."
https://lesegarements.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/la-vierge-ret...
"Ce style dérive du Muldenfaltenstil (art des plis en cuvette), répandu dans la peinture et les vitraux du nord de la France aux alentours de 1200."
http://www.musee-moyenage.fr/media/documents-pdf/dossiers-de...
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Note added at 2 hrs (2015-05-09 13:21:03 GMT)
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In response to Helen's comment: it's very difficult to find a reference that is bang on the right date and place. I could object that her "looping fold" reference is in a piece made 200 years later in the Southern Netherlands. But it could still be the right term.
However, firstly, the lexical connection I have demonstrated between "pli de cuvette" and "trough fold" is strong. Nicolas de Verdun himself, active around 1200 , is a little earlier than the 13th century pieces you're dealing with, but not much. Nicolas de Verdun is classified as a Romanesque artist, but a late one, but he's really a transitional figure from Romanesque to Gothic. He seems to have originated this style, but it lasted for some time after him and was apparently current throughout the 13th century.
As to whether the pieces you're dealing with are Gothic or early Renaissance, of course I don't know, but in principle, given the date, it seems more likely that they are on the Gothic side of the line. And Giovanni Pisano, if it does refer to him, he is "sometimes called the only true Gothic sculptor in Italy" (Britannica) and drew heavily on northern Gothic.
So I think the connections are strong enough to make one confident that this is the right term.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2015-05-09 13:30:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
By the way, separately from the precise chronology of medieval art, "trough fold" is also what a "pli de cuvette" is called in geology: it's a syncline, as opposed to a "pli en dôme", which is an anticline:
https://books.google.es/books?id=Uy70CAAAQBAJ&pg=PA216&lpg=P...
https://books.google.es/books?id=82CeAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA288&lpg=P...
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Note added at 3 hrs (2015-05-09 15:09:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Note that the novelty of Nicolas's "natural" style of rendering drapery looks forward to Gothic, not back to Romanesque: "unlike the angular, inorganic drapery found in Romanesque art" (see third reference above). So I think it's wrong to say that this term describes Romanesque.
"C'est en Moselle, avec Nicolas de Verdun, que survient une véritable révolution stylistique. La châsse des Rois mages de Cologne se libère des contraintes romanes avec une mise en page franchissant le cadre qui enserrait les motifs romans. Les drapés, avec leurs plis « en cuvette » hérités des plis « mouillés » antiques, donnent aux figures une liberté et un naturalisme nouveaux. Ainsi assiste-t-on à la naissance du « style 1200 », incarné par les créations de Nicolas de Verdun."
http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/divers/orfèvrerie/75252
"It does not seem likely that the classical wet-fold drapery style of Nicholas had originated in monumental painting or even that it had developed in monumental painting parallel to book illumination, goldsmith's work, and sculpture"
https://books.google.es/books?id=1RIAeAMUJywC&pg=PA100&lpg=P...
"Nicholas's work, both two- and three-dimensional, shows a new interest in the natural proportioning of the human body, the fall of cloth garments over it, and a type of soft drapery fold called Muldenfaltenstil (trough fold style), which is smoothly curved and unlike the angular, inorganic drapery found in Romanesque art"
https://books.google.es/books?id=p4uHav3mZLsC&pg=PA567&lpg=P...
"He considered the Lewis Psalter to be painted in a second-phase Muldenfaltenstil ("trough fold style") dating from 1220-1230."
https://books.google.es/books?id=HbP7JvQy3lUC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA...
OK, a little earlier than yours, but not much.
Trough for cuvette makes sense.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2015-05-09 12:51:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
By the way, for those who may see this and not realise why we're talking about medieval drapery, see the discussion in the question on "pli froissé"
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/art_arts_crafts_...
To complete the circle:
"Ces rides et dépressions de surface constituent le « Muldenfaltenstil », style des plis en cuvette."
https://lesegarements.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/la-vierge-ret...
"Ce style dérive du Muldenfaltenstil (art des plis en cuvette), répandu dans la peinture et les vitraux du nord de la France aux alentours de 1200."
http://www.musee-moyenage.fr/media/documents-pdf/dossiers-de...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2015-05-09 13:21:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
In response to Helen's comment: it's very difficult to find a reference that is bang on the right date and place. I could object that her "looping fold" reference is in a piece made 200 years later in the Southern Netherlands. But it could still be the right term.
However, firstly, the lexical connection I have demonstrated between "pli de cuvette" and "trough fold" is strong. Nicolas de Verdun himself, active around 1200 , is a little earlier than the 13th century pieces you're dealing with, but not much. Nicolas de Verdun is classified as a Romanesque artist, but a late one, but he's really a transitional figure from Romanesque to Gothic. He seems to have originated this style, but it lasted for some time after him and was apparently current throughout the 13th century.
As to whether the pieces you're dealing with are Gothic or early Renaissance, of course I don't know, but in principle, given the date, it seems more likely that they are on the Gothic side of the line. And Giovanni Pisano, if it does refer to him, he is "sometimes called the only true Gothic sculptor in Italy" (Britannica) and drew heavily on northern Gothic.
So I think the connections are strong enough to make one confident that this is the right term.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2015-05-09 13:30:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
By the way, separately from the precise chronology of medieval art, "trough fold" is also what a "pli de cuvette" is called in geology: it's a syncline, as opposed to a "pli en dôme", which is an anticline:
https://books.google.es/books?id=Uy70CAAAQBAJ&pg=PA216&lpg=P...
https://books.google.es/books?id=82CeAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA288&lpg=P...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2015-05-09 15:09:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Note that the novelty of Nicolas's "natural" style of rendering drapery looks forward to Gothic, not back to Romanesque: "unlike the angular, inorganic drapery found in Romanesque art" (see third reference above). So I think it's wrong to say that this term describes Romanesque.
Note from asker:
| Thank you |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Helen Shiner
: This sounds great, but it describes Romanesque, not early Renaissance sculpture. That may not be a problem, but my understanding is that the terminology is pretty specific. Pisano was working later than this (1250-1315), i.e. more Gothic/early Renaissance
8 mins
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Have to add a note to answer this
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| agree |
B D Finch
2 hrs
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Thanks, Barbara
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| neutral |
Atelier de Mots
: What would "trough" mean to a child?
11 hrs
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For that matter, what would "cuvette" mean to a French child? If a child doesn't know the word, you explain it. I wouldn't dumb it down more than the original. Is "trough" a more difficult word than "alternating" or "nested"?
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
1 hr
Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Arts/Academic translator - Art historian
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
348
looped or looping fold
Less sure on this one, but this is what I imagine it to be. I think it is the soft, full fall of the drapery, when the fabric is less taut than a V-shaped fold.
See here the discussion of drapery of this Pièta by the V&A. They use the term 'looping fold'. I have seen 'looped fold' elsewhere.
Christ’s right arm Stylistically it is on the cusp between late gothic – exemplified by the calligraphic looping folds of the Virgin’s drapery, and her swaying pose – and the more realistic manner of contemporary Netherlandish painters such as Rogier van der Weyden (c.1400-1464), whose expressive, angular forms are recalled in the figure of Christ.
http://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/news-learning-department/twenty-ob...
At least it gives you something to go on.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2015-05-09 13:12:14 GMT)
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Just to clarify, I don't think this term is specific to any particular period. This example may be later than Giovanni Pisano's work, but still, as it says, Late Gothic.
See here the discussion of drapery of this Pièta by the V&A. They use the term 'looping fold'. I have seen 'looped fold' elsewhere.
Christ’s right arm Stylistically it is on the cusp between late gothic – exemplified by the calligraphic looping folds of the Virgin’s drapery, and her swaying pose – and the more realistic manner of contemporary Netherlandish painters such as Rogier van der Weyden (c.1400-1464), whose expressive, angular forms are recalled in the figure of Christ.
http://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/news-learning-department/twenty-ob...
At least it gives you something to go on.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2015-05-09 13:12:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Just to clarify, I don't think this term is specific to any particular period. This example may be later than Giovanni Pisano's work, but still, as it says, Late Gothic.
Note from asker:
| Many thanks for your answers and your time. |
| Thank you |
3 hrs
alternating folds
The historic explanations are helpful... I've simply attempted to translate the meaning into directions for a craft project.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Helen Shiner
: We've established this isn't a craft project, but children looking at an exhibition of sculpture - think it must be amongst the context given as part of one of the Asker's other questions. Shows that context is important, doesn't it?
3 mins
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OK, yes, and of course the context is important. That said, the language here is intended for children. SO, maybe there is somewhere to go with "alternating" or "nesting" folds. (?)
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3 hrs
alternating nested folds
Another attempt to describe the shape of these folds in a way that children might grasp.
Discussion