Sep 10, 2004 18:44
20 yrs ago
English term
give the plural of motto,alto,soprano,cello
Non-PRO
English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
english literature
no other term
Responses
+7
11 mins
Richard Benham
France
France
Native in English
&
English
France
When quality counts
Native in: English 
Works in: German to English, French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
24
Selected
mottos/mottoes, altos/alti, sopranos/soprani, cello/celli
What was supposed to be offensive about these?
"Motto" is fully naturalized into English, and it would be ridiculous to give it an Italian plural. My dictionary, a Collins, gives the plural both with and without the "e", but I think without is preferable.
The same might be said for the three others (no dictionary I am aware of suggests adding an "e" in the plural), except that they are musical terms, and Italian terminology is very widespread in music, so that the Italian plurals are still not infrequently used by people like conductors. So there is some latitude here, but generally I would expect the plural in "-s" for general use, and with "-i" in more technical use within the serious music fraternity.
BTW there is an argument for putting an apostrophe at the beginning of "'cello", as it is short for "violoncello", a diminutive of an augmentative!
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Note added at 15 hrs 9 mins (2004-09-11 09:54:29 GMT)
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Re: basses/bassi. This wasn\'t in the question, but it\'s an interesting oddity. The same classical musos who use Italian plurals like soprani and alti also often, as suggested by Laurel, say \"bassi\". Fine, except they hardly ever say \"basso\" in the singular, preferring the English \"bass\". The only exception I know to this is the critic who described my singing voice as \"basso relievo\": basso when I sing and relievo when I stop.
\"cello\" as a plural of \"cello. I\'m not familiar with this, but it seems some others on this site are. I can\'t see anything to recommend it. Using the singular as plural seems to be a specialty of game hunters referring to their quarry. If I were a cello (that\'s another habit of classical musos: using the name of the instrument for the musician), I\'d rather not be treated like a deer. (\"Sheep\" is another example, but for a different reason: the singular and plural forms converged through sound changes.)
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Note added at 2 days 21 hrs 55 mins (2004-09-13 16:40:21 GMT)
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Yes, in case you hadn\'t worked it out, \"cello\" was a typo for \"cellos\" in the answer. The system, of course, won\'t let me change it.
"Motto" is fully naturalized into English, and it would be ridiculous to give it an Italian plural. My dictionary, a Collins, gives the plural both with and without the "e", but I think without is preferable.
The same might be said for the three others (no dictionary I am aware of suggests adding an "e" in the plural), except that they are musical terms, and Italian terminology is very widespread in music, so that the Italian plurals are still not infrequently used by people like conductors. So there is some latitude here, but generally I would expect the plural in "-s" for general use, and with "-i" in more technical use within the serious music fraternity.
BTW there is an argument for putting an apostrophe at the beginning of "'cello", as it is short for "violoncello", a diminutive of an augmentative!
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Note added at 15 hrs 9 mins (2004-09-11 09:54:29 GMT)
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Re: basses/bassi. This wasn\'t in the question, but it\'s an interesting oddity. The same classical musos who use Italian plurals like soprani and alti also often, as suggested by Laurel, say \"bassi\". Fine, except they hardly ever say \"basso\" in the singular, preferring the English \"bass\". The only exception I know to this is the critic who described my singing voice as \"basso relievo\": basso when I sing and relievo when I stop.
\"cello\" as a plural of \"cello. I\'m not familiar with this, but it seems some others on this site are. I can\'t see anything to recommend it. Using the singular as plural seems to be a specialty of game hunters referring to their quarry. If I were a cello (that\'s another habit of classical musos: using the name of the instrument for the musician), I\'d rather not be treated like a deer. (\"Sheep\" is another example, but for a different reason: the singular and plural forms converged through sound changes.)
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Note added at 2 days 21 hrs 55 mins (2004-09-13 16:40:21 GMT)
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Yes, in case you hadn\'t worked it out, \"cello\" was a typo for \"cellos\" in the answer. The system, of course, won\'t let me change it.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
David Moore (X)
: Good and complete
31 mins
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Thanks.
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| agree |
sarahl (X)
: on your way to 666,666, are you, cobber?
2 hrs
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Thanks! I doubt I'll live so long.
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| agree |
Laurel Porter (X)
: 100%, as a soprano myself... But did you mean "cellos", or actually "cello" with no "s"? ("Cello" is what you wrote and what awilliams & I were questioning; sorry if that wasn't clear.) I like your thoroughness. Just saw your final addendum - oops!
3 hrs
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I've never heard "cello" as the plural of "cello" before. Sounds weird to me....//See my addendum about both these points.//I should type more carefully!
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| agree |
Deborah Workman
: Ditto to you, David, Sarah and Laurel.
4 hrs
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Thanks.
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| agree |
Martine Brault
: Traviata, of course, agrees ;0)
4 hrs
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Thanks.
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| agree |
Rajan Chopra
6 hrs
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Thanks.
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| agree |
awilliams
: you're right about the -i for more "serious" musical instances. I definitely favour mottos, cellos, sopranos and altos - maybe because I associate "soprani" etc. with poncy conductors! Really not sure about "cello" as plural of "cello", though.
1 day 7 mins
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Sorry, it was a typo. I was writing in a hurry.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Graded automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
3 mins
David Russi
United States
United States
Native in English
&
English
United States
30+ years, stopped counting...
Native in: English 
, Spanish
Works in: English to Spanish, Spanish to English
Related KudoZ points
:
44
mottoes, altos, sopranos, cellos
mottoes, altos, sopranos, cellos
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Richard Benham
: These are OK, although I like "mottos". As I have pointed out elsewhere, the Italian plurals in "-i" are still used a fair bit in the musical world. (NOT for m"motto" of course.)
1 hr
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+3
5 mins
Michael Powers (PhD)
United States
United States
Native in English
&
English
United States
US Court Cert. 1980 Ph.D. 1981
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, Portuguese to English, English to Spanish, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
120
mottos or mottoes // altos // sopranos // cello OR celli
Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Inflected Form:plural mottoes also mottos
plural cello also cel£li \-l*
Mike :)
Inflected Form:plural mottoes also mottos
plural cello also cel£li \-l*
Mike :)
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Agnieszka Hayward (X)
: celloS and celli IMHO
1 min
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Thank you, tygru - Mike :)
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| agree |
humbird
: Watch for pluralization of words of Latin delivation, as they have peculiar tendency of doing so. Well these seem OK to me.
1 day 6 hrs
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| agree |
Alfa Trans (X)
14 days
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+5
1 min
mottos, altos, sopranos, cellos
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Note added at 1 day 8 mins (2004-09-11 18:53:49 GMT)
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These are for general terms, for technical terms you can use Richard\'s reply.
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Note added at 1 day 8 mins (2004-09-11 18:53:49 GMT)
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These are for general terms, for technical terms you can use Richard\'s reply.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Armorel Young
: Oxford dict. says pl. of motto can be with or without e
4 mins
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Thanks. I just looked up too and was going to post it :-)
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Richard Benham
: I agree with you for general use, but (see my answer), the Italian plurals are often used as technical terms in music.//Just covering all "basses" as well as soprani, alti and celli, of course!
11 mins
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Thank you Richard. You're right on "technical music terms" but I got the impression that the asker was looking for just general terms
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senin
49 mins
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Thank you senin
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| agree |
awilliams
2 hrs
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Thank you!
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| agree |
Rajan Chopra
6 hrs
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Thanks
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Discussion