definitely (Eng legal latin)

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Note added at 3 mins (2004-07-28 10:50:03 GMT)
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I presume because that is the English pronounciation that grew up, just as \"justice\" has a Latin root, but is also pronounced and spelt with a \'J\'.

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Note added at 6 mins (2004-07-28 10:53:20 GMT)
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In old (English) Latin inscriptions of the names for English/British kings, James is given in the Latin form (something like) \'Iacobus Rex\', though.




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Note added at 1 hr 13 mins (2004-07-28 12:00:55 GMT)
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I believe it is just one of those (many) things that just arbitrarily happened in English.
The OED says:
\"ad. L. jr-, stem of js law, right: ‘in jure’ answers to L. in jre\"
which begs the question from the asker, \"why the \'j\'?\"

It\'s interesting that
for \"science of law/juris prudence\"
we have:
\"1556 LAUDER Tractate 448 Thay suld haue knawlage of boith the Iuris, Als weill the Canone as Ciuile law\"
and:
\"1496 Sc. Acts Jas. IV (1814) 238/1 To remane thre eris at e sculis of art and Iure, sua at ai may haue knawlege..of e lawis.\"

but for:
\"a just privilege, a right\"

\"1611 Court & Times Jas. I (1848) I. 136 (Stanf.) Done de facto, and not de jure. 1638 [see de facto above]. 1694 Poet Buffoon\'d, etc. 7 (Stanf.) Husband or Gallant, either way, De facto or De jure sway. 1837 H. MARTINEAU Soc. Amer. II. 81 States that are de facto independent, without having anything to do with the question de jure. 1870 LOWELL Study Wind. (1886) 74 It is a de jure, and not a de facto property that we have in it.\"

and:
\"1533 BELLENDEN Livy IV. (1822) 314 Gif the tribunis has..tane fra the Faderis thare majesties and juris. c1745 in Gentl. Mag. (1773) XLIII. 498 Sherlock the Elder, with his jure divine, Did not comply till the battle of Boyne.\"

Justinian, who gives his name to the legal code is also spelt with a \'j\'.

When did it change, and why?
Well, \'justice\' is a French word too, so the shift happened in that word in French as well.
\'Justice\' in it\'s oldest English meaning comes from Norman French (ie: not long after the Norman conquest). Norman French is said to have sounded like French spoken with an English accent, but that doesn\'t help because \'justice\' is also a word in modern (general) French (and surely also came directly from Latin).

\"1137-54 O.E. Chron. an. 1137 a the suikes under gæton [at] he [Stephen] milde man was..& na iustise ne dide. Ibid. an. 1140 He dide god iustise and makede pais. a1300 Cursor M. 150 Sal be sythen tald..o salomon e wis How craftilik he did iustis. c1460 FORTESCUE Abs. & Lim. Mon. xix. (1885) 156 We shul nowe mowe enjoye oure owne goode, and live vndir justice. a1548 HALL Chron., Hen. V, 73b, I am..an anoynted kyng, to whom..it apperteineth..to minister to them indifferent iustice. 1670 CLARENDON Contempl. Ps. Tracts (1727) 601 Where justice is not, the fertilest land becomes barren. 1679 DRYDEN Troilus & Cr. Pref., We are glad when we behold his Crimes are punish\'d, and that Poetical Justice is done upon him. 1751 JOHNSON Rambler No. 93 6 Addison is suspected to have denied the expediency of poetical justice because his own Cato was condemned to perish in a good cause [cf. Spect. No. 40]. 1873 HAMERTON Intell. Life II. ii. (1876) 405 This rough justice of the world.\"

I believe the change is simply due to the way English (and - slightly differently of course - French) people spoke, and adoption of spellings which used the available letters to reflect it more naturally, with the gradual abandonment of Latin spelling that didn\'t reflect the sound people used - applying to justice, just, de jure, in jure, and even January....




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Note added at 1 hr 16 mins (2004-07-28 12:03:40 GMT)
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(Since rights and privileges in law are and were derrived from written or traditional law, it can\'t really be argued that there was ever a distinction between Iure and Jure.)

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Note added at 1 hr 20 mins (2004-07-28 12:07:41 GMT)
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The OED gives no rexample of an \'i\' form ever having been used for \'de jure\' and \'iure\' was used sometimes, but was abandoned very very long ago indeed.

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Note added at 1 hr 22 mins (2004-07-28 12:09:07 GMT)
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(In English)

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Note added at 1 hr 25 mins (2004-07-28 12:12:17 GMT)
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I suggest it is comparable to the vowel shift which accounts for spellings in \'England\' which is the land of the \'Angels\' and is inhabited by the English (which in English is pronounced \'Inglish\', with English \"short\" \'i\'s).

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Note added at 1 hr 27 mins (2004-07-28 12:14:49 GMT)
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typo. \'...which is the land of the Angles....\'
\'Angels\' was in the famous old Latin joke that St.Augustine (not the N.African Roman one, but the one who went to Cannterbury) is said to have made.

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Note added at 1 hr 29 mins (2004-07-28 12:16:25 GMT)
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(although there are some differences)

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Note added at 1 hr 31 mins (2004-07-28 12:18:14 GMT)
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typo. \'Justinian, who gives his name to the legal code is also spelt with a \'j\', in English\'



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Note added at 1 hr 35 mins (2004-07-28 12:22:39 GMT)
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http://cccw.adh.bton.ac.uk/schoolofdesign/MA.COURSE/LAlphabe...

\"`J\'[was] added during the Middle Ages to complete our present day alphabet of 26 letters.
`J\' was an `outgrowth\' of `I\' and used to give a sound of greater consonant force, particularly as the first letter of some words.\"



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Note added at 1 hr 36 mins (2004-07-28 12:23:22 GMT)
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(which expalins why they look similar)

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Note added at 1 hr 54 mins (2004-07-28 12:41:43 GMT)
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Pronunciation:

Collins says (and I agree :-)

\"de jure [approx. \'day jer-ray\']\"
adverb(ial) according to law; by right; legally

Old and Middle English (eg: Chaucer\'s time) still voiced the (nowadays silent) -e endings,
so even if you treat it as an English \'e\' ending as in \'sure\' it would have been voiced. It is a very old expression, and this accounts for it retaining an old pronunciation. The same applies to its Latin origin.
That\'s the logic behind the fact that the -e is pronounced :-)



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Note added at 1 hr 59 mins (2004-07-28 12:46:49 GMT)
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i presume the pronunciation didn\'t change between then and now (the ending didn\'t disappear) because it was (is:-) \'book-learned\' - not used in ordinary conversation, but only for specific concepts argued about by lawyers.

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Note added at 2 hrs 0 min (2004-07-28 12:47:27 GMT)
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baby typo. \'I\' :-)

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Note added at 2 hrs 1 min (2004-07-28 12:48:48 GMT)
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(or because they said, \"it\'s legal Latin, so that\'s the way to say it\")

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Note added at 4 hrs 30 mins (2004-07-28 15:17:48 GMT)
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http://home.earthlink.net/~thesaurus/thesaurus/Pronunciation...
\"Sometimes one will see a \"j\" in Latin. Technically Latin has no letter J. It was introduced in the 13th century or thereabouts to differentiate between the vowel i and the consonant i. The consonantal i is like our y. \"Major\" in Latin is pronounced as MAH-yor. Until this last century, most printed Latin texts used the j to indicate the different sounds. Today the j\'s are usually replaced with the more classical i\'s.\"

Maybe - but you certainly wouldn\'t use an \'i\' for \'de jure\' as a latin tag in an English text!

I\'m interested in why there was no \'j\' in (Ancient Roman) Latin, and how the ancient Romans would have pronounced \'iur-\'. Was it that their alphabet imperfectly represented the sound - and stress laid on the syllables - that they made. Or was it that with the pronunciation and stress they used it was not a problem.

http://home.earthlink.net/~thesaurus/thesaurus/Pronunciation...
says (for Ecclesiastical Latin - supposedly as spoken in the RC church from the 3rd. century - present day)

\"Sometimes one will see a \"j\" in Latin. Technically Latin has no letter J. It was introduced in the 13th century or thereabouts to differentiate between the vowel i and the consonant i. The consonantal i is like our y. \"Major\" in Latin is pronounced as MAH-yor. Until this last century, most printed Latin texts used the j to indicate the different sounds. Today the j\'s are usually replaced with the more classical i\'s.\"
\"vowels -
I as in machine
I as in pit or hit\"

\"Latin Pronunciation Demystified\"
http://www.ai.uga.edu/~mc/latinpro.pdf

gives reconstructed ancient and 3 other versions of Latin pronunciation, and agrees (consonant \'i\' (replaced with \'j\') approx. as in \" \'y\' for [English] \'yet\' \", vowel as above too).



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Note added at 4 hrs 37 mins (2004-07-28 15:24:50 GMT)
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I mean Latin pronunciation spoken by Romans and so on - NOT when saying \"de jure\" in English legal Latin :-)

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Note added at 4 hrs 38 mins (2004-07-28 15:25:45 GMT)
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So the sound did change.

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Note added at 4 hrs 42 mins (2004-07-28 15:29:51 GMT)
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(typo. \'Canterbury\' :-)

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Note added at 5 hrs 1 min (2004-07-28 15:48:41 GMT)
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typo.
\"Pronunciation:
Collins says (and I agree)
\"de jure [approx. \'day j-eu-r-ray\']\"