Mar 14, 2004 15:05
20 yrs ago
English term
yourselves
English
Other
Idioms / Maxims / Sayings
grammar
"...I have been given this reference number by yourselves"
I've been proofreading a text that includes the line above. I suggested to use "...by you / your company" as the reflexive pronoun has no place here. The author, however does not accept that this is grammatically incorrect. I cannot find examples of this misuse in my grammar books. Can anybody there supply me with a grammatical expalnation and references so I can justify my position?
Many thanks
I've been proofreading a text that includes the line above. I suggested to use "...by you / your company" as the reflexive pronoun has no place here. The author, however does not accept that this is grammatically incorrect. I cannot find examples of this misuse in my grammar books. Can anybody there supply me with a grammatical expalnation and references so I can justify my position?
Many thanks
Responses
+1
11 mins
David Knowles
Native in English
&
English
Works in field
Specialist in Civil Law & Contracts
Native in: English 
Works in: Russian to English, English, Ukrainian to English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Selected
This is increasingly common usage, and seems to be intended to appear educated/cultured.
It grates on my ears, but you can't control the language! It's certainly not standard English, but it is increasingly common in business English, particularly among small businessmen.
I agree with colleagues that it may be best to make the sentence active, but ... the passive sounds more formal/educated, and round we go again!
I agree with colleagues that it may be best to make the sentence active, but ... the passive sounds more formal/educated, and round we go again!
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you all. I give up against common usage. I am fighting a losing battle. I don't understand how people can use such constructions PREcisely to appear more cultured or educated!"
+7
5 mins
Kim Metzger
Mexico
Mexico
Native in English
&
English
Works in field
Mexico
Committed to Quality and Service
Native in: English (Variant: US)
Works in: German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
55
you have given me
"Reflexive pronouns serve to add emphasis (She fixed it herself) or to turn the action back to the subject (He makes himself hard to find). Do not substitute them for ordinary objects: 'The meeting was between myself and the plumbers.' Make it 'me' and the plumbers.
People are afraid to use the ordinary object - they'd rather say "it's for myself" than "it's for me." The best solution would be the reference number you have given me.
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Note added at 6 mins (2004-03-14 15:11:09 GMT)
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The New York Times Manual of Style.
People are afraid to use the ordinary object - they'd rather say "it's for myself" than "it's for me." The best solution would be the reference number you have given me.
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Note added at 6 mins (2004-03-14 15:11:09 GMT)
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The New York Times Manual of Style.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Lesley Clarke
21 mins
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| agree |
Rajan Chopra
22 mins
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| agree |
Tony M
: Nicely expressed!
24 mins
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| agree |
Refugio
: If the author is hung up on using the word yourselves for emphasis, it would not be incorrect to include it in the active construction: "You yourselves have given me the reference number"
53 mins
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| agree |
whoever
: My modest opinion is that it´s acceptable to use reflexive pronouns to add emphasis. In Spanish that would be "Ustedes mismos". I guess it´s a matter of style, but not gramatically incorect.(http://www.english-zone.com/grammar/st-ramnarong.html).
2 hrs
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| agree |
hookmv
2 hrs
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| agree |
Edward L. Crosby III
: I'd say such usage is a "thou shalt not" rather than just a "do not". As "whoever" intimates, you can add "yourself" after "you" for emphasis "you yourself...", but you cannot REPLACE "you" with "yourself".
2 hrs
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14 mins
see comment
to be given something by someone
In this instance, someone canot be a reflective pronoun as it is in fact the real subject of the action, it can only be a nominal pronoun or a nominal group.
The only exception would stem from using the subject of the passive form as also the object. We have been given this award by ourselves, but that would be purely for effect.
In this instance, someone canot be a reflective pronoun as it is in fact the real subject of the action, it can only be a nominal pronoun or a nominal group.
The only exception would stem from using the subject of the passive form as also the object. We have been given this award by ourselves, but that would be purely for effect.
+4
20 mins
COMMENT
This ugly construction has always been common in 'commercial' English --- my mother was familiar with it in the '20s!
I think it stems from the desire to round-off a sentence with a longer word than just 'you', for the sake of balance and flow; of course, that begs the question "why lumber yourself with this construction in the first place?" Maybe it was all part of that attempt in commerical English to de-personalise by using passive etc. constructions, and so on.
But do also remember that old-fashioned construction, of which this could well be a throwback: "your (good) selves"
So whilst I deplore the construction, I don't think you are really in a position to dogmatically insist that it is WRONG, if, of course, your client's context fits the 'commercial correspondence' slot...
I think it stems from the desire to round-off a sentence with a longer word than just 'you', for the sake of balance and flow; of course, that begs the question "why lumber yourself with this construction in the first place?" Maybe it was all part of that attempt in commerical English to de-personalise by using passive etc. constructions, and so on.
But do also remember that old-fashioned construction, of which this could well be a throwback: "your (good) selves"
So whilst I deplore the construction, I don't think you are really in a position to dogmatically insist that it is WRONG, if, of course, your client's context fits the 'commercial correspondence' slot...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
RHELLER
: love the choice of adjective here :-) - the " one must never argue with the client "rule supersedes all others, right?
5 mins
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Thanks, Rita! 'Fraid so, at least for translators and proof-readers!
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| agree |
David Knowles
: You've given good antecedents and expressed the problem more clearly than I managed to!
12 mins
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Thanks, David! Aunty Cedent was always my favourite... And its so rare for ME to be accused of clarity... :-))
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| agree |
Jörgen Slet
31 mins
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Thanks, Jörgen!
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| agree |
Charlie Bavington
: Yep, unfortunately for the Asker, there ain't nuthin' wrong with it. The client is quite right.
2 hrs
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Thanks, Charlie! Common usage wins over elegance and rules...!
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| neutral |
Edward L. Crosby III
: In your example "why lumber yourself...", the "yourself" is a reflexive pronoun. That's perfectly proper usage, but you can't use the reflexive pronoun as a direct or indirect object pronoun to refer to another person ("I gave it to yourself.").
2 hrs
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Thanks, Edward! And quite! That's the whole point; but the fact remains that this IS common usage...
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+7
1 min
You gave me the reference number
You are the ones who gave me the reference number
I was given the reference number by Mr. X
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Note added at 2 mins (2004-03-14 15:07:43 GMT)
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\"by you\"sounds awkward - although not grammatically incorrect
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Note added at 3 mins (2004-03-14 15:08:24 GMT)
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This reference number was furnished to me by your company.
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Note added at 1 hr 14 mins (2004-03-14 16:19:45 GMT)
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I would just like to say that my disagree to David is not for him personally but rather for the idea that somehow uselessly cluttering up a sentence will result in a more \"cultured\" result. I feel strongly that clear and concise language is the best way to communicate, whether in a letter or in a technical document. Unless the subject matter is purely literary or poetic.
I was given the reference number by Mr. X
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Note added at 2 mins (2004-03-14 15:07:43 GMT)
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\"by you\"sounds awkward - although not grammatically incorrect
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Note added at 3 mins (2004-03-14 15:08:24 GMT)
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This reference number was furnished to me by your company.
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Note added at 1 hr 14 mins (2004-03-14 16:19:45 GMT)
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I would just like to say that my disagree to David is not for him personally but rather for the idea that somehow uselessly cluttering up a sentence will result in a more \"cultured\" result. I feel strongly that clear and concise language is the best way to communicate, whether in a letter or in a technical document. Unless the subject matter is purely literary or poetic.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
NancyLynn
1 min
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thanks Nancy! is it spring yet?
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| agree |
David Russi
2 mins
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thanks David!
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| agree |
Vicky Papaprodromou
: Yes, Rita. I like the phrase "You are the ones".
2 mins
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thanks Vicky!
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| agree |
Marian Greenfield
3 mins
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merci Marian!
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| agree |
Lesley Clarke
: yes, much better in this case
24 mins
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thanks Lesley!
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| agree |
Charlie Bavington
: I'd only use "you are the ones" if it needs to be emphasised that YOU gave me the reference number; otherwise yes, just make it active and avoid the issue.
2 hrs
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thanks Charlie!
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| agree |
hookmv
2 hrs
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thanks Veronica!
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