Sep 11, 2006 20:20
18 yrs ago
English term
TRANSLATIONS THAT READ LIKE ORIGINALS
Native in: Spanish
Works in: English to Spanish, Spanish, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
"I wore" v "I had worn" (see context)
English
Other
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
Grammar
I am in the middle of a amicable disagreement with a colleague, and I decided to post it here to settle the matter.
The phrase:
I had surgery to correct my shortsightedness in 2000. Before that, I had worn glasses or contact lenses.
My version:
I had surgery to correct my shortsightedness in 2000. Before then, I wore glasses or contact lenses.
My friend insists that it should be "before that", and I insist that "before then" is better. Also, my friend is adamant that the use of "I wore" is WRONG, and that the only correct construction would be "I had worn", or " I used to wear". I insist that " I wore" is perfectly correct in this case.
The phrase:
I had surgery to correct my shortsightedness in 2000. Before that, I had worn glasses or contact lenses.
My version:
I had surgery to correct my shortsightedness in 2000. Before then, I wore glasses or contact lenses.
My friend insists that it should be "before that", and I insist that "before then" is better. Also, my friend is adamant that the use of "I wore" is WRONG, and that the only correct construction would be "I had worn", or " I used to wear". I insist that " I wore" is perfectly correct in this case.
Responses
| 4 +10 | before then, I wore |
Ken Cox
|
| 4 +1 | I wore |
Mark Nathan
|
| 5 | any of these is fine .."I wore" "I had worn" "Before that" |
airmailrpl
|
| 3 +1 | I had worn |
Yavor Dimitrov
|
Responses
+10
24 mins
Selected
before then, I wore
'I had worn' means that you wore glasses or contact lenses for some finite length of time prior to some reference time, but stopped wearing them some time before the reference time. IMHO the reference time is 'then' (as in 'before then'. which is when you had the surgery. As you presumably wore glasses or contact lenses up to that time, 'I wore' is correct.
As to 'before then' or 'before that', 'before then' is formally preferable (IMHO), but 'before that' is very common in colloquial usage.
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Note added at 13 hrs (2006-09-12 09:21:37 GMT)
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On further consideration, I agree with the comments by cmwilliams and Rita. Either 'before then' or 'before that' is possible; it depends on which reference you have in mind: the date of the surgery ('before then') or the fact of the surgery (before that').
'Before that' is much more common in general usage.
As to 'before then' or 'before that', 'before then' is formally preferable (IMHO), but 'before that' is very common in colloquial usage.
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Note added at 13 hrs (2006-09-12 09:21:37 GMT)
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On further consideration, I agree with the comments by cmwilliams and Rita. Either 'before then' or 'before that' is possible; it depends on which reference you have in mind: the date of the surgery ('before then') or the fact of the surgery (before that').
'Before that' is much more common in general usage.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
María Teresa Taylor Oliver
: That's the explanation I was grasping at :) I assume it refers to an indefinite length of time (one doesn't wear glasses just once, right?), ergo, "wore", not "had worn".
2 mins
|
| agree |
cmwilliams (X)
: 'before that' sounds more natural to me
59 mins
|
| agree |
Dave Calderhead
1 hr
|
| agree |
Patricia Fierro, M. Sc.
2 hrs
|
| agree |
KathyT
: and agree with cmwilliams
2 hrs
|
| agree |
Peter Shortall
2 hrs
|
| agree |
RHELLER
: I agree with "I wore"but I prefer "before THAT" meaning before that time
6 hrs
|
| agree |
maryrose
: with Rita, "before that". I had worn is incorrect.
7 hrs
|
| agree |
Alison Jenner
: "before that"
11 hrs
|
| agree |
pomiglia
: it is a finished action: I wore glasses, then I had surgery.
12 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you. Disagreement is settled now, quite amicably still."
+1
14 mins
Yavor Dimitrov
Bulgaria
Bulgaria
Bulgaria
A creative flair for words
Native in: Bulgarian (Variant: Standard-Bulgaria) 
Works in: English to Bulgarian, Bulgarian to English
I had worn
I'd think "I had worn" is the better option in terms of grammar.
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Note added at 19 mins (2006-09-11 20:40:33 GMT)
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"Had worn" is the Past Perfect Simple Tense which is mainly used when we want "to go back" to an earlier past time, to talk about things that HAD ALREADY HAPPENED at the time we are talking about.
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Note added at 25 mins (2006-09-11 20:45:49 GMT)
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As per Michael Swan, the past perfect is usually used when there is this idea of a 'second' or earlier past.
Having said all this, I'd think "wore" would be the everyday English usage, but in formal writing, I'd rather use "had worn".
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Note added at 30 mins (2006-09-11 20:51:47 GMT)
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However, we do not need to use the past perfect when we talk about past events in the order in which they happened (which is not the case here).
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Note added at 19 mins (2006-09-11 20:40:33 GMT)
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"Had worn" is the Past Perfect Simple Tense which is mainly used when we want "to go back" to an earlier past time, to talk about things that HAD ALREADY HAPPENED at the time we are talking about.
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Note added at 25 mins (2006-09-11 20:45:49 GMT)
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As per Michael Swan, the past perfect is usually used when there is this idea of a 'second' or earlier past.
Having said all this, I'd think "wore" would be the everyday English usage, but in formal writing, I'd rather use "had worn".
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Note added at 30 mins (2006-09-11 20:51:47 GMT)
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However, we do not need to use the past perfect when we talk about past events in the order in which they happened (which is not the case here).
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Anton Baer
: Good distinction - formal and informal, or rather written and spoken. My thoughts too.
12 mins
|
|
Thank you, HeinrichB.
|
|
| neutral |
maryrose
: what you say about the application of the past perfect is correct; however, here we are talking about something that was ongoing in the past, not a completed action.
11 hrs
|
|
Thank you for your note, maryrose. I got your point. Progressive aspect expressed through simple tenses is sometimes hard to distinguish.
|
+1
7 mins
I wore
You would say, "If I had known how easy the operation was I would have had it earlier".
Either before then or before that is OK.
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Note added at 22 mins (2006-09-11 20:43:11 GMT)
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The grammatical explanation is that if you are telling a story that takes place in the past you might say, "Alice arrived at the party"(past simple). That is the starting point of the story. If you refer to an event that took place before this time, "Bill had already gone home" then you use the past perfect (had...).
So you might say, "In 2006 I underwent corrective surgery for my eyesight, but I remember an occasion the year before when I went swimming and I had worn my glasses...
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Note added at 44 mins (2006-09-11 21:05:28 GMT)
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I can see that even with my explanation there is some doubt.
But if you change your sentence around, " I wore glasses before 2000, when I had surgery to correct my shortsightedness" then there is no way you would say, "had worn" or "had had surgery".
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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-09-11 22:31:15 GMT)
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I think some of the doubt arises from the fact that "to wear glasses" (in the corrective sense) is a condition rather than an act. Consider, "I had surgery to correct my shortsightedness in 2000, before that I was almost blind," (not "I had been almost blind").
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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-09-11 22:38:20 GMT)
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Unless you were reporting this in the "second past": "I told her that I had had surgery to correct my shortsightedness in 2000 and that before that I had been almost blind."
Either before then or before that is OK.
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Note added at 22 mins (2006-09-11 20:43:11 GMT)
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The grammatical explanation is that if you are telling a story that takes place in the past you might say, "Alice arrived at the party"(past simple). That is the starting point of the story. If you refer to an event that took place before this time, "Bill had already gone home" then you use the past perfect (had...).
So you might say, "In 2006 I underwent corrective surgery for my eyesight, but I remember an occasion the year before when I went swimming and I had worn my glasses...
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Note added at 44 mins (2006-09-11 21:05:28 GMT)
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I can see that even with my explanation there is some doubt.
But if you change your sentence around, " I wore glasses before 2000, when I had surgery to correct my shortsightedness" then there is no way you would say, "had worn" or "had had surgery".
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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-09-11 22:31:15 GMT)
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I think some of the doubt arises from the fact that "to wear glasses" (in the corrective sense) is a condition rather than an act. Consider, "I had surgery to correct my shortsightedness in 2000, before that I was almost blind," (not "I had been almost blind").
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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-09-11 22:38:20 GMT)
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Unless you were reporting this in the "second past": "I told her that I had had surgery to correct my shortsightedness in 2000 and that before that I had been almost blind."
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
cmwilliams (X)
1 hr
|
10 hrs
airmailrpl
Brazil
Brazil
Native in English
&
English
Works in field
Brazil
Technical - Fast - good price - accurate
Native in: English (Variant: US) 
, Portuguese (Variant: Brazilian)
Works in: English to Portuguese, Portuguese to English, English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
88
any of these is fine .."I wore" "I had worn" "Before that"
"I wore" "I had worn" "Before that"
Discussion