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Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

pencil vs crayon

English answer:

coloured/colouring pencil; wax crayon

Added to glossary by NancyLynn
Oct 22, 2004 11:49
19 yrs ago
5 viewers *
English term

pencil vs crayon

English Social Sciences Education / Pedagogy
I've been translating the manual for a psychological test which can be taken by children from 5 years upwards. The actual questions include things like "Which pencil is exactly the same length as the blue one?" (with a picture showing a number of different coloured pencils of different lengths). I instinctively used the word pencil but the client has asked why I haven't used the word crayon. Obviously he has a point, and a crayon is indeed a coloured pencil - but my gut feeling is that crayon is not quite as well-known a word as pencil and I'm not sure that all 5-year-olds would know it. What do others think - particularly those with experience of the vocabulary used by young children?
Responses
4 +11 colouring pencil; crayon is wax
4 +17 crayon
5 +4 find out the market, the source language and the target, well, you already know that.
4 +4 just a couple of words....
5 +2 see explanation
4 +2 for me a "pencil" is a thing with a "lead" in the middle and NOT coloured
3 -1 below

Discussion

LJC (X) Oct 22, 2004:
Hi Amorel. I see you're in the UK so why not visit your local primary school armed with an ordinary pencil, a crayon (or coloured pencil) and a wax crayon. Ask the head if you can show them to the pupils ask ask the ckildren themselves what they are.
Roddy Stegemann Oct 22, 2004:
Amorel, please find out who your target audience is. Obviously it is not ProZ.com!
Roddy Stegemann Oct 22, 2004:
No, James. The mentally handicapped are invariably outliers, and their scores would be treated separately. Once again, we are looking at a psychology test -- not a language test.
giogi Oct 22, 2004:
No, please let's try not to switch a professional discussion into an unpleasant argument! I think that evry single opinion here should be taken into consideration.
J. Leo (X) Oct 22, 2004:
Yes Hamo, some children are mentally handicapped and would be confused by the wording. You offer yet another reason why proper word choice is important. Have a good day.
Roddy Stegemann Oct 22, 2004:
Note to James - I do not have to know who you are to know what you have written. Amorel has described quite precisely both a picture and a question. The child would have to be a moron to be tripped up on the name of the object.
RHELLER Oct 22, 2004:
Returning to the asker's question: in the U.S. we have 3 entirely different things: crayons (wax),colored pencils, and pencils with gray graphite (used to be lead) in the center. Most 5-year-olds use crayons. because they press too hard on colored pencil
CMJ_Trans (X) Oct 22, 2004:
well guessed - I prefer dogs!
Roddy Stegemann Oct 22, 2004:
Yes, CMJ things have changed. Crayons were around a long time before colored lead was invented. You must not have any children!
Roddy Stegemann Oct 22, 2004:
Bravo Giovanna. James is reading fear into a situation where fear does not belong.
giogi Oct 22, 2004:
Hallo Armorel, What's the point of discussing about "technical" stuff, if they just want to know if the kids can easily manage space and (maybe time)issues? I mean that your client seems to be a bit confused about the aims of a psychology test!
J. Leo (X) Oct 22, 2004:
What it's called has everything to do with it. Some kids don't get exposed to some of these objects and are already nervous during a test. I'm making a point of this because I've seen what this type of mistake causes. Is there a backtranslation scheduled?
Annika Neudecker Oct 22, 2004:
Armorel - Just out of curiosity: What's the *German* word you translated into "pencil"?
CMJ_Trans (X) Oct 22, 2004:
I am stunned - for me, what I said was 100% correct and I stick to it BUT I'm not 21 any more -things may have changed!
Roddy Stegemann Oct 22, 2004:
Disclaimer: My full use of this and other forums has been restricted for reasons unknown, so please forgive my lack of direct support for answers offered by other contributors and critical assessment of non-contributors who are misleading and/or abusive.
Roddy Stegemann Oct 22, 2004:
I, too, like Giovanna's cat!
Roddy Stegemann Oct 22, 2004:
The question posed to the children has nothing to do with what the object is called; rather it is the length and color of similar objects that the child must distinguish and select. Call it a pencil, a crayon, or a writing stick, it makes no difference!
NancyLynn Oct 22, 2004:
I do believe James has the solution (addendum to main text), because clarity is the priority here.
J. Leo (X) Oct 22, 2004:
Present all of these suggestions below and perhaps find other website sources of psychological tests to see what might be appropriate. Once again, you may need to offer all these suggestions in an addendum of the user's manual.
J. Leo (X) Oct 22, 2004:
Just for clarity here, but this isn't about kudoz points or competitive ProZ or even which is the more correct English. This type of detail is exactly what goes wrong with psychological assessments and is the argument against testing in general.
J. Leo (X) Oct 22, 2004:
Find out what the market is and tell your client that you may have to add some type of note for the person giving the test. Psychological tests have user's manuals and it may be up to the test adminstrator to determine what is best for that specific kid.
Non-ProZ.com Oct 22, 2004:
I'm sorry CMJ_Trans got so much flak, because in my childhoold in southern England crayons was another name for coloured pencils, as he says. The wax ones were wax crayons.
Non-ProZ.com Oct 22, 2004:
The test originates in Germany (I'm not yet sure what market the translation is aimed at, but they know I'm a BE translator! The pictures definitely show coloured pencils, not wax things.
Rowan Morrell Oct 22, 2004:
In New Zealand, where we use mostly British English, we have both colouring pencils and crayons, and they are two different things. So it's not just Americans or Canadians who distinguish between them. I always envisage a crayon to be a coloured wax thing
J. Leo (X) Oct 22, 2004:
...would definitely be confused. This type of mistake on a psychological test could make the difference in a kid's test score. One point can make the difference in an assessment. It's critical that you check the source and target languages.
J. Leo (X) Oct 22, 2004:
If the psychological test comes from the US than a crayon is the colored waxed object described by some below. The translation will depend upon you target population. It may be technically correct that a colored pencil is a crayon, but American kids...
Kim Metzger Oct 22, 2004:
British English, I presume?

Responses

+11
3 mins
Selected

colouring pencil; crayon is wax

a crayon is a piece of coloured wax; a coloured pencil needs sharpening. HTH

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Note added at 4 mins (2004-10-22 11:53:29 GMT)
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In Canada, Laurentian makes coloured pencils; Crayola makes crayons

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 mins (2004-10-22 11:59:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


Bayline Community Roundtable - [ Traduire cette page ]
... Crayons (don\'t buy the 64 - they are a waste - buy 8 or 160 also the other brands
don\'t color the way they should) 1 box Laurentian coloured pencils 1 box ...
baylinerrt.cimnet.ca/cim/80C124_212T4973.dhtm - 10k - En cache - Pages similaires


Peer comment(s):
agree Alexander Demyanov
5 mins
thanks
agree Lydia Molea
14 mins
thanks
agree cmwilliams (X)
19 mins
thanks
agree Rowan Morrell : I had both colouring pencils and crayons as a child.
23 mins
and my children now have both here in the house! they have different effects on paint and kitchen cupboards, let me tell you ;-)
agree mportal
54 mins
thanks
agree Annika Neudecker
1 hr
thanks Annika
agree Olga B
1 hr
thanks Olga
agree DGK T-I : they are often called colouring/-ed pencils -also called 'pencil crayons' http://www.youngchildrenslearning.ecsd.net/stink_balls.htm to distinguish from 'wax crayons' - I'd argue that they're all crayons,although 'crayons'often used to mean wax crayons)
2 hrs
yep - thanks Giuli
agree Kurt Porter
2 hrs
thanks Kurt
agree conejo : I agree: crayons (wax sticks with paper wrappers) and colored pencils (need sharpening) are 2 different things. In the US we would say "colored pencil."
2 hrs
exactly!
agree Java Cafe
2 hrs
thanks
agree Alexandra Tussing
11 hrs
thanks Alexandra
disagree Montefiore : I don't think it's a matter of brand, and I don't understand what your answer is
19 hrs
the brands are examples to illustrate my answer: coloured pencils and crayons are two different things
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Wow! What a storm I unleashed with what I thought was an innocent and simple question. I take the general point that for most people a crayon is not the same thing as a coloured pencil - thanks to everyone who contributed to the consensus."
-1
9 mins

below

Actually, your client has a point,as the word crayon means coloured pencils, I suppose that there will not be any misunderstanding. especially if this book children will use with a teacher/psychologist.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Louise Mawbey : In UK English a crayon is not the same as a coloured pencil - I'd be interested to know which English-speaking countries use the words synonymously
2 mins
I just repeated the expretion used by the asker....
disagree mportal : I think a native speaker of English would not confuse the two, but would understand if someone else called a coloured pencil a crayon
48 mins
neutral Montefiore : agree with Louise
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
9 mins

see explanation

crayon is a wax-based coloured stick, usually covered with paper that can be peeled off in the same way that a pencil is sharpened. Crayons are used mainly by very young children to draw or to color drawings. I think 5 year olds would know the meaning of both pencil and crayon, but I would choose the word pencil if that is what the original says. By the way, I don't know which language you are translating into. If it's French maybe my explanation doesn't apply.
Peer comment(s):
agree Deborah Workman : I think it does very much depend on what is intended by the original. If it's colored pencils or coloring pencils, then that's how it should be rendered. If it's wax crayons, then thus. The writing implements are quite different!
5 hrs
agree Alexandra Tussing : with Deborah
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
11 mins

for me a "pencil" is a thing with a "lead" in the middle and NOT coloured

and a "crayon" is a coloured pencil. Crayons are NOT just wax, they can be the standard wood variety but they tend to be painted to match the colour in their middle. Children tend to work in colour to begin with and are used to "crayons" more than "pencils". My mother was a teacher....
Peer comment(s):
neutral Rowan Morrell : When I was a child, I had a set of colouring pencils, and they were definitely of the lead variety. And they were called "colouring pencils" on the package label. I had crayons as well, which were wax and quite different to the colouring pencils.
15 mins
well maybe it's a generation thing but We (UK° called them crayons. Wax was something else
disagree Cormac Bracken : In my experience, a coloured pencil is still clearly a pencil. A crayon is always wax and never wooden. My mother was a pre-school teacher :-P
25 mins
I cannot agree but it must be our cultures or our ages
disagree mportal : agree with Cormac (although my mother was not a pre-school teacher)
48 mins
I can only say what I know and I suspect you guys are all at lot younger than me
agree DGK T-I : there is a compromise solution of "pencil crayon" http://www.partybox.co.uk/catalogue.asp?pageid=2 (as opposed to "wax crayon") (personally,I would say coloured pencil and wax crayon are both crayons,although a lot of people use crayon for wax crayon
1 hr
agree nlingua : colouring pencil; crayon is wax
3 hrs
agree LJC (X) : My mother wasn't a pre-school teacher either, but I was a child once!
5 hrs
agree Montefiore : I agree with you
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
+4
32 mins

just a couple of words....

ask your client if he/she knows the difference between a crayon and a coloured pencil....five-year old children know it very well!
Peer comment(s):
agree J. Leo (X) : however, perhaps the client isn't sensitive to the specifics of such a test. By the way your cat looks just like mine, whom I miss :-( Mine was called Floortje (little flower) Oh, cat people :-)
8 mins
And I'm still missing my Ulysses who died two years ago!
agree Annika Neudecker
53 mins
thanks
agree DGK T-I : I think it is fair to say, a lot of children would think of a wax crayon,when they heard/saw the word 'crayon'
1 hr
definitely! Thanks
agree Alexandra Tussing : and the cat is cute.
11 hrs
tttthanks!
Something went wrong...
+17
4 mins

crayon

From my experience as a primary school teacher (many moons ago) I would say that children are very well aware of what a crayon is - they use them more often than a pencil and always call them crayons. To me a pencil (or coloured pencil) is the thing with wood around it and a crayon is the wax thing with paper round it - two very different things. Do you know what yours looks like?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 51 mins (2004-10-22 12:40:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If your picture shows coloured pencils then they should be called coloured pencils and definitely not crayons.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 52 mins (2004-10-22 12:42:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If I asled any child I know to pass me a crayon he/ she would look for a \"wax thing\", not a \"wooden thing.\"
Peer comment(s):
agree Alexander Demyanov
4 mins
agree Cilian O'Tuama
6 mins
agree Arcoiris : Your answer wasn't showing when I entered mine
7 mins
agree cmwilliams (X) : a crayon is different from a coloured pencil
18 mins
agree J. Leo (X) : crayon is French for pencil, non? What you describe applies in the States too.
18 mins
agree Tehani
21 mins
agree tazdog (X)
28 mins
agree Attila Piróth
33 mins
agree Nancy Arrowsmith : used much more widely in the US, pencils are almost unknown
34 mins
agree mportal : yes, and so it seems potentially confusing to a child to use either in psychological tests, (but that is beside the point)
51 mins
agree Derek Gill Franßen : I remember getting in a lot of trouble for leaving my crayons in the car in the summer - they melted all over the back seat. That never happened to my colored pencils. ;-) // Utah gets pretty hot in the summer, but not that hot! ;-)
1 hr
they just went up in flames??!!
agree Annika Neudecker
1 hr
agree DGK T-I : although there is also a respectable compromise option of 'pencil crayon'(colouring/-ed pencil) eg: http://www.tiesnet.org/pencil-crayons.html & 'wax crayon'(crayon)
2 hrs
agree Java Cafe
2 hrs
agree Alfa Trans (X)
4 hrs
agree Alexandra Tussing : Colored pencils are used in the US rather widely, actually.
11 hrs
agree Montefiore : you gave perfect definitions here, and yes, children know this difference
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
+4
2 hrs

find out the market, the source language and the target, well, you already know that.

I'm not convinced that it's a question about the perception of space. I could very well be a question that falls under the realm of verbal abilities.
A verbal (sub)test: does a child know colors?
A perception (sub)test: is there a visual problem?
A performance (sub)test: are the pencils a set of actual pencils or a picture?
This would determine other aspects of what the test is attempting to measure.
These miniscule details of wording are very important. There are strict rules involved in making sure that the reactions of a testee are indicative of the tests goals and thus leading to proper assessment. If the child sees a pencil and hears crayon then the question is confusing and will certainly effect his or her score. Sensitivity to this word is crucial. It may be that you are doing the backtranslation Amorel.
I'm doing one now only to find out mid-stream that it was a backtranslation.
good question!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 40 mins (2004-10-22 14:30:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hamo: Bravo Giovanna. James is reading fear into a situation where fear does not belong.

Do you know me that well to make this comment?
Please don\'t answer, I haven\'t got the time for this type of dialogue.
Peer comment(s):
agree giogi : You're right! nothing can be taken for granted in such a context!
5 mins
It may just be that the length is important, but I wouldn't assume it. Often the the question behind the question is being tested. I would need more context to truly judge its purpose.
agree Java Cafe
31 mins
Thanks, Java.
agree Refugio : The only sensible solution. As a teacher I have often tested young children, especially English language learners. The words used are very important. If you show them what they call a pencil, and call it a crayon, they will look at you and clam up.
9 hrs
Thanks Ruth, there's more to this issue than just linguistics.
agree Montefiore
16 hrs
Thanks, Montefiore
Something went wrong...
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