Nov 7, 2003 19:08
21 yrs ago
English term
Ukraine
60+ books translated and published
Native in: Russian 
Works in: English to Russian, Russian
capable of illusion
English
Art/Literary
From a book by Krishnamurti (I give quite a large quote as the context).
...You are seeking, asking, longing, to walk on the other shore. The other shore implies that there is this shore, and from this shore to get to the other shore there is space and time. That is what holding you and bringing about this ache for the other shore. That is the real problem -- time that divides, space that separates, the time necessary to get there, and the space that is the distance between this and that. This wants to become that, and finds it is not possible becuase of the distance and the time to cover that distance. In this there is not only comparison but also measurement, and a mind that is capable of measurement is CAPABLE also OF ILLUSION.
To translate the last clause, it's crucial for me to grasp the meaning precisely.
Is the mind able "to delude itself, to labour under a delusion" or "to create illusions" (not for itself, but, by the mind's nature, for the true Self).
Thank you in advance.
...You are seeking, asking, longing, to walk on the other shore. The other shore implies that there is this shore, and from this shore to get to the other shore there is space and time. That is what holding you and bringing about this ache for the other shore. That is the real problem -- time that divides, space that separates, the time necessary to get there, and the space that is the distance between this and that. This wants to become that, and finds it is not possible becuase of the distance and the time to cover that distance. In this there is not only comparison but also measurement, and a mind that is capable of measurement is CAPABLE also OF ILLUSION.
To translate the last clause, it's crucial for me to grasp the meaning precisely.
Is the mind able "to delude itself, to labour under a delusion" or "to create illusions" (not for itself, but, by the mind's nature, for the true Self).
Thank you in advance.
Responses
Responses
11 mins
Selected
*
I don't think the answer to your question can be found explicitly in the text excerpt you have provided. I would say, however, that the answer would have to be your first option — "to delude itself, to labour under a delusion." It is the ego-self that perceives the distance between here and there, and it is the ego-self that perpetuates delusions. The True Self cannot be deluded or else it would not be the True Self. (Mind you, this is my interpretation — I'm going out on a limb here.)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 33 mins (2003-11-07 19:42:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Since you presumably have an entire book or essay to refer to, you should find the answer to your question in there. For what it\'s worth, here\'s a quote I just found (not by K.) that may address your question:
We talk of attaining the Self, or of reaching God, in time. But there is nothing to attain. We are already Self-existent. Nor will there ever be a time when we shall be nearer to God than now. We are ever-blissful, Self-existent, the infinite now. Our Consciousness is unbroken, continuous and eternal. It is all maya, self-hypnotism, to imagine that now we are otherwise. De-hypnotize yourself! It is ego which deludes itself that there are two selves, one which we are conscious of now (the person) and the other, the higher, the divine, of which we shall one day become conscious. This is false. There is only one Self and it is fully conscious now and for ever: there is neither past, present nor future for It, since It is out of time.
http://www.storytellingmonk.org/ref/quotes/ego.htm
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 33 mins (2003-11-07 19:42:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Since you presumably have an entire book or essay to refer to, you should find the answer to your question in there. For what it\'s worth, here\'s a quote I just found (not by K.) that may address your question:
We talk of attaining the Self, or of reaching God, in time. But there is nothing to attain. We are already Self-existent. Nor will there ever be a time when we shall be nearer to God than now. We are ever-blissful, Self-existent, the infinite now. Our Consciousness is unbroken, continuous and eternal. It is all maya, self-hypnotism, to imagine that now we are otherwise. De-hypnotize yourself! It is ego which deludes itself that there are two selves, one which we are conscious of now (the person) and the other, the higher, the divine, of which we shall one day become conscious. This is false. There is only one Self and it is fully conscious now and for ever: there is neither past, present nor future for It, since It is out of time.
http://www.storytellingmonk.org/ref/quotes/ego.htm
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you very much, dear colleagues! All answers were helpful. I'm sorry it took me so long to grade my question, but I was going further along the text which I'm translating, and I was hoping to find any clues in other essays.
It was a very hard choice, but today, when I was reading once more the quote found by Norbert, the word "maya" has drawn my attention. "Maya" is illusion itself, and it also means "measurement", it comes into being when we start to measure things. To measure anything we have to extract, separate it from the unity, and this separation-measuring is "maya". So I will go with "able to create illusion" in my translation.
Sorry for me being so verbose,
and thank you, everybody, once more."
6 mins
Herman Vilella
Native in English
&
English
A lifetime of translations
Native in: English 
, Spanish
Works in: English to Spanish, Spanish to English, English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
14
capaz de ilusionarse
the phrase as above is frequently used in popular Spanish nowadays, perhaps taken from some non-Spanish language a couple-three years ago or longer.
6 mins
Michael Powers (PhD)
United States
United States
Native in English
&
English
United States
US Court Cert. 1980 Ph.D. 1981
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, Portuguese to English, English to Spanish, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
1174
to delude itself, to be deceived, able to be mislead
I believe this is what is meant is meant here. In the last phrase in which he states "a mind that is capable of measurement is capable also OF illusion" he does not state a mind that is capable of being measured.
Mike :)
Mike :)
8 mins
Manuel Plaza
Spain
Spain
Spain
20 years in international programs
Native in: Spanish (Variant: Standard-Spain)
Works in: French to Spanish, English to Spanish
Related KudoZ points
:
27
able to have ilusions
I see it this way
25 mins
David Knowles
Native in English
&
English
Specialist in Civil Law & Contracts
Native in: English
Works in: Russian to English, English, Ukrainian to English
Related KudoZ points
:
612
is capable of deceiving itself or others
The root meaning of illusion is "playing tricks" "being deceived" "mocking", but there are also the extended meanings of "creating imaginary things".
I'd like to see what follows to have more idea.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-11-07 19:50:25 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
To answer your question
Deluding itself I think, probably by thinking and measuring, rather than simply being or loving.
Norbert has a good answer.
I'd like to see what follows to have more idea.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-11-07 19:50:25 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
To answer your question
Deluding itself I think, probably by thinking and measuring, rather than simply being or loving.
Norbert has a good answer.
40 mins
capable of illusion (your : self dillusion)
There is nothing hidden in the phrase itself. The passage is another case altogether, but in a nutshell rational thought and desire are impediments or not the same as love. To answer your question its your self dillusion, although I think some might argue that dillusion may not be the word that should be used for 'self illusion'
11 mins
able to delude itself into thinking that it exists
it is not possible? the mind is capable of of illusion; capable of moving into worlds that are imaginary
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 mins (2003-11-07 19:20:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
the following paragraph might help if this answer is insufficient
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 mins (2003-11-07 19:21:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
the following paragraph might help if this answer is insufficient
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 39 mins (2003-11-07 19:48:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
he is not only dealing with the mind\'s capabilities here, he is also referring to conditions. \"when there is love...\" as opposed to \"when there is thought\".
the mind is capable of imagining covering the distance of time and space. (is it really covering the distance of time and space?)
if he does not use the term delusion, delusional, I would stay away from it because it is not the same as illusion
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 23 mins (2003-11-07 20:31:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I asked that question rhetorically - because we speak of illusion here...we may think that we have \"leaped\" to the other shore but did we get to the other shore?
1 hr
Based on the asker's comments 'mind that deludes (something else ie:"You")' because....
For me there is some sense of the "you" in the first four lines being separate from the mind which is capable of measurement and illusion. That DOESN'T mean that the mind isn't "your" mind (as well as 'minds capable of measurement', in general perhaps) - just that "you" (the self? your desires? the centre of perception of your other elements?) is distinguished from your (and similar, possibly) minds (which do jobs for you like measure).
"Asker: I want to distinguish carefully in my translation "mind that deludes (smth else)" vs. "mind that deludes itself, is self-deluding", that's why the question.
Asker: Dear Rita, - The mind is thinking that "this" and "that" shores are separated by some distance and the time necessary to cover it, so the mind feels it has to evaluate, to measure both, though in fact there is no separateness, thus when there is true love there are no notions and even thinking of a path between "this" and "the yonder" shores."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 48 mins (2003-11-07 20:57:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
At any rate, the \"mind\" seems to be creating illusions (things that aren\'t real) for \"you\".
"Asker: I want to distinguish carefully in my translation "mind that deludes (smth else)" vs. "mind that deludes itself, is self-deluding", that's why the question.
Asker: Dear Rita, - The mind is thinking that "this" and "that" shores are separated by some distance and the time necessary to cover it, so the mind feels it has to evaluate, to measure both, though in fact there is no separateness, thus when there is true love there are no notions and even thinking of a path between "this" and "the yonder" shores."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 48 mins (2003-11-07 20:57:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
At any rate, the \"mind\" seems to be creating illusions (things that aren\'t real) for \"you\".
3 hrs
susceptible to illusion
illusion being created either by self or by others
Discussion
I'm not new to Krishnamurti's writings and Hindu philosophy in general, so I feel the difference is very important here. I have an `unfair' way to avoid the problem in my translation by writing that the mind "is also able to deceive" or "to make a mistake" (in my target language, Russian, both options will sound natural). Still I want to be as precise as possible.
This division of space and time between this and that is the way of the way, which is thought. Do you know, when there is love, space disappears and time disappears? It is only when though and desire come in that there is a gap of time to be bridged. When you see this, this is that.
Period. I want to distinguish carefully in my translation "mind that deludes (smth else)" vs. "mind that deludes itself, is self-deluding", that's why the question.