Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

"said" OR "the said"

English answer:

the said

Added to glossary by Fuad Yahya
Apr 22, 2002 20:31
23 yrs ago
61 viewers *
English term

said sth OR the said sth

English Art/Literary formal register
Cambridge Int'l Dctry of English has the following example with the definite article: "The said John Brown was seen breaking into the car on the night of January 15th"

On the other hand, I hear the phrase "he renounced his claim to the above-mentioned apartment" could be rephrased into "he renounced his claim to said apartment". Is it correct to delete the definite article from it? Is there any good web site on the use of articles?
Change log

Jan 1, 2006 11:27: Fuad Yahya changed "Field" from "Other" to "Art/Literary"

Responses

+3
26 mins
Selected

The omission of the definite article is a form of allowed laxity in some genres.

Correct form requires the definite article in both sentences that you cited. It is, however, common in news stories and police reports (and similar writings) to sacrifice correct form for the purpose of brevity or just to give the writing a certain dry flavor.

Fuad
Peer comment(s):

agree Attila Piróth : Exactly. I would keep `the', and then you 1. cannot go wrong, 2. it does not sound artificial.
5 mins
neutral Berni Armstrong : If you are keeping it formal I would keep the definite articles. Having said that, it is becoming far more common for those sentences to just begin "John Brown was seen..." "..to the apartment".. when we know which person/thing is being referred to.
24 mins
agree John Kinory (X) : Exactly.
6 hrs
agree Maria Knorr
15 hrs
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3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Lots of evidence on the internet (one of the best is http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/artconf.htm). Thanks everybody. It really seems a tough question ;-D"
5 mins

depends on context

If we are talking plaintext, the article is generally used. Omitting it is a kind of shorthand that we have become used to and is used in court papers and the like almost as an abbreviation.

Don't sweat it.
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6 mins

tough

This is a tough question, mainly because you are dealing with legalese (... the party of the first part, in compliance with the said regulations put forth by the party of the second part...)

My wife has a slavic language as her mother tongue. She is ALWAYS having problems about when to put THE in the sentence and when to leave it OUT.

My only response to her, and you, is "It doesn't SOUND right that other way."

You might check the link.
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+2
18 mins

Use "the said" when "The" begins a sentence...

...or when referring to a person or entity.

Do not use "the" before "said" in the middle of a sentence when referring to an object (such as an apartment).

Just an instinctive rule of thumb for me as a native speaker. I am not able to substantiate in the least grammatically. :)
Peer comment(s):

agree ingot : 'said' at the beginning of a sentence needs 'The' in front of it.If 'said' is elswhere in the sentence one needn't use 'the'.
58 mins
Thanks!
agree Stanislaw Watson Zajaczkowski (X) : doesn't SOUND right that other way
2 days 22 hrs
Thanks
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7228 days

ledit

just read that it is also the difference btw American and British English
it s a legalese

I quote:
The use of said as an adjective meaning aforementioned comes from legal and business writing, and
While the OED Online may give a determiner in all its examples; said is not always used with a determiner. I don't see how "of said child" can be grammatical if you don't consider said a determiner. In fact, I think these Google Ngrams make it clear that said is a determiner in American English but not in British English
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