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nasal bridge
ten-on-ten
Mar 6, 2016 17:31
9 yrs ago
1 viewer *
English term

weight average particle size

English to French Tech/Engineering Chemistry; Chem Sci/Eng particules de polymère
With regard to the polymeric particle according to the invention, which is the primary particle, it has a weight average particle size between 15nm and 900nm.
Proposed translations (French)
5 -1 taille de particule en poids moyen
4 -1 granulométrie de poids moyen
4 -1 taille moyenne des particules
2 -1 diamètre de particule moyen en poids
References
Definition of "weight average" and "number average"

Discussion

PLR TRADUZIO (X) Mar 8, 2016:
Tony Je ne sais pas si ma proposition (diamètre des particules de poids moyen) est parfaite ou non mais je ne suis simplement pas d'accord avec toute formulation qui indique que la taille/diamètre est exprimée en poids.
Tony M Mar 7, 2016:
@ Lionel I have NEVER said 'diamètre en poids' — THAT would be a horror in ANY language! It is the 'poids' that is 'moyen'.

And again, I have NEVER said that the 'diamètre' is 'average' — I have ALWAYS said, from the beginning, that it is the WEIGHT that is average.

NO you are NOT clear; the agreement is neither here nor there: 'moyen' agrees with 'poids' (masculine singular), NOT with 'diamètre' as you keep perversely but erroneously insisting!
PLR TRADUZIO (X) Mar 7, 2016:
@Tony Je vais essayer en Français : Tony dire "diamètre en poids" non seulement n'est pas FR mais surtout c'est une HORREUR scientifique: un diamètre est une unité de mesure de longueur; le poids non ! C'est comme écrire "les micromètres exprimés en microgrammes".
Indépendamment de ce que l'on trouve sur le net.
Je conteste aussi l'attribution de l'adjectif "average" au diamètre puisque la phrase indique qu'il varie de 15 à 900: in ne s'agit donc pas d'un diamètre moyen, hors tu as écrit "moyen" et non "moyenne", à démonstration que tu fais rèférence au diamètre et non aux paricules.
Suis-je plus clair ?
Tony M Mar 7, 2016:
@ Lionel No you are not more clear!

I didn't invent the formulation, I found it in quite a number of references on the 'Net. I freely acknowledge that it may not be perfect FR — that part, I leave to the native speakers. But it DOES reflect the correct meaning of the source text, which does NOT contain a typo!
The range of diameters given is for particles of 'weight-average' — there is nothing anywhere about the diameter being mention in weight, or the measurement being of an average particle.

This is TOTALLY different from the very many situations where we take a 'weighted average' of something.
Didier Fourcot Mar 7, 2016:
Size of the "weight average" molecule ? 15 to 900 nm are between the size of a small polymer and of a big one, that could be called particle.
As the "weight average" is properly defined for a molar mass, can we imagine that the text refers to the size of the molecule representative of this weight average molar mass?
See more details in reference for the definitions
PLR TRADUZIO (X) Mar 7, 2016:
@JM Je pense aussi que Didier a raison, car dans nombre d'autres textes on trouve "weighted average"!
Les particules sont de divers poids. Si l'on immagine leur distribution gaussienne avec en X le poids et en Y le nombre, on arrive à une "cloche" dont le pic représente les particules de poids moyen.
Ensuite, si l'on considère ces particules, peut-on immaginer qu'elles aient des dimètres qui vont de 15 à 900 nm ?
Dans ce cas, on aurait le diamètre/taille des particules de poids moyen.
Possible ?
PLR TRADUZIO (X) Mar 7, 2016:
@Tony You suggested: diamètre de particule moyen en poids
In this sentence you have "diamètre de particule" (diameter of particles) "moyen" which means the mean of this diameter as gender is male so, "mean diameter of particles" and you add "en poids" that is "in weight".
First: it cannot be a mean diameter as the sentence says it ranges from 15 nm to 900 nm; so it's not a mean
2/ if you add "in weight" you express the diameter in weight, that is a physical mesure in micrometers that you express in wight, that is is gram, kilogram....etc.
Am I more clear ?
Tony M Mar 7, 2016:
@ Asker On no, PLEASE! Just do a bit of elementary research, like Googling for the exact source term and limiting results to 'exact wording only' (or whatever that is in EN); you will then see, as I have been saying from the outset, that this is a highly specialized term in a specialist field; it is definitely NOT a typo for 'weighted', and if you read my asnwer below carefully, you should begin to understand what it's all about.
orgogozo (asker) Mar 7, 2016:
@Didier En fait tu penses à "weighted average" ? Ce pourrait être la solution. Il y a plein de bizarreries dans le texte source>.
Tony M Mar 7, 2016:
@ PLR I can't understand why you perversely persist in misinterpreting my answer below; you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth, since I have never for one moment mentioned any element of « diamètre en poids », nor is that implied by my answer, where it is very clearly the 'moyen en poids'. As you yourself say in the discussion post below!

It would certainly have been easier to understand the question term if it had retained the hyphen 'weigh-average', as used in very many of the references on the 'Net.

Clearly more research IS needed, in order to understand this highly specialized topic; this is a special kind of 'average', based on weight not numbers'.
PLR TRADUZIO (X) Mar 7, 2016:
it has a weight average particle size between 15nm Il est évident que "average" ne s'applique pas au diamètre: le diamètre va de 15 à 900 nm.
Average se réfère au poids; il me semble qu'il s'agit docn des particules, de poids moyen, qui ont un diamètre qui va de 15 à 900
Tony M Mar 7, 2016:
@ Didier No, it's a well-known concept in the specialist field of fine powders, there are over 300,000 Ghits for the source term as is. Although 'weighted average' does of course exist, with very many more examples, it is not at all the same concept.
Note that in the context here, 'weight average' opposes 'number average'.
Didier Fourcot Mar 7, 2016:
weightED average? Le texte source tel quel n'a pas de sens, une moyenne pondérée de la taille par la fréquence de distribution en aurait un. S'agissant d'un brevet demander une modification du texte source ou une confirmation.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moyenne_pondérée

Proposed translations

-1
9 mins
Selected

taille de particule en poids moyen

"L'invention concerne un procédé d'élaboration de composition de moulage qui consiste en une opération de fusion-mélange de polymère thermoplastique, de charge inorganique non métallique et de fer élémentaire à taille de particule en poids moyen d'au maximum 450 µm, donnant une composition dans laquelle le polymère thermoplastique forme une phase continue."
http://google.com/patents/EP1656412A1?cl=fr

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2016-03-11 07:06:04 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

"Weight-based particle size

Weight-based particle size equals the diameter of the sphere that has the same weight as a given particle.

D = 2 \sqrt[3] {\frac{3W}{4\pi dg}}

where

D: diameter of representative sphere
W: weight of particle
d: density of particle
g: gravitational constant"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_size
Note from asker:
@PLR Moi aussi je trouve ça bizarre mais c'est peut-être la taille de particule correspondant au poids moyen de particule. SGDG
Peer comment(s):
disagree PLR TRADUZIO (X) : une taille en poids exprimé en micromètres ???? Ca me semble mal traduit FX
2 mins
neutral Tony M : I think it is the SIZE of particles of the average weight. Of course, it is the TAILLE that is expressed in nm, nothing to do with the actual weight itself, as PLR seems to be misunderstanding.
17 mins
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Merci à tous"
-1
4 hrs

granulométrie de poids moyen

suggéré
Peer comment(s):
disagree PLR TRADUZIO (X) : la granulométrie est une mesure de taille; le poids une mesure de masse. C'est comme dire volume de poids moyen....
12 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
15 mins

taille moyenne des particules

IMHO

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2016-03-07 10:46:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Autre possibilité: diamètre des particules de poids moyen
Peer comment(s):
agree GILLES MEUNIER
2 mins
Merci Gilou
disagree Tony M : You are missing out the all-important 'weight' element, which changes the meaning completely.
9 mins
you're probably right
disagree HERBET Abel : et "weighted" ???
1 day 3 hrs
Veuillez lire SVP: diamètre des particules de poids moyen
Something went wrong...
-1
3 hrs
English term (edited): weight-average particle size

diamètre de particule moyen en poids

After further research, this seems like a more plausible contender:

diamètre de particule moyen en poids (Dw)

which opposes
diamètre de particule moyen en nombre (Dn)


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 heures (2016-03-06 21:12:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In this very specific field, it seems that 'size' and 'diameter' are both used intechangeably, but it looks as though 'diameter' is probably the commoner of the two, especially in view of the acronym's being Dw.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 heures (2016-03-07 11:06:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In essecne, it's a weight average rather than a number average; it would be necessary to ask a statistician to explain the precise scientific implication of that, but it's easy to get an appoximate idea, sufficient for the purpose of this exercise.
Peer comment(s):
disagree PLR TRADUZIO (X) : Tony, un diamètre en poids n'a aucun sense physique. Tony, there's no need of research: in physic, you cannot express a diameter in weight, as you wrote. As I suggested, "average" applies to weight, not to diameter: size of particles of average weight
13 hrs
Do please do the research before disagreeing! I never said anything about 'diamètre en poids': the technical expression is 'moyen en poids', which has a special meaning in this highly specialized field. Please see ref. by CFournier below.
agree CFournier : ou diamètre particulaire moyen en poids, oui !!! (Expression très courante dans le domaine des polymères ) Cf par exemple http://nte.mines-albi.fr/STP/co/C1_Contenu_02-05.html
1 day 13 hrs
Merci, C!
disagree HERBET Abel : Peu importe, on trouve de tout partout
1 day 18 hrs
The example given by CFournier above is a perfectly valid example in native FR.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

19 hrs
Reference:

Definition of "weight average" and "number average"

Not sure if these are highly specialized, these terms are clearly definied for example for polymers, but they refer to a molar or molecular mass, I still cannot see how they may relate to a size in nanometers

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 jours17 heures (2016-03-09 11:01:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

@PLR: explications des masses molaires moyenne en nombre et en poids dans ce brevet Michelin:
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Elastomeric-laminate-t...
On peut faire la statistique sur une variable, puis une fois trouvé le représentant moyen, mesurer d'autres variables de ce représentant
"weight average" n'a rien d'exotique ni de spécialisé, c'est juste applicable seulement à une masse molaire dans ce cas
Reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_mass_distribution#Definition_of_molar_mass_averages

http://nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu/~soderho/D03.htm

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Tony M : Hooray! 'weight / number average' is a statistical conept that applies in other fields too. I would say the field of molecular weights of polymers is pretty specialized, really — hardly your run-of-the-mill average everyday technical translation ;-)
4 hrs
neutral PLR TRADUZIO (X) : Pardon mais je n'ai rien compris Didier sur le rapport avec la question en objet....Il faut comprendre quoi ? le concept de masse molaire ?
10 hrs
Weight average est défini pour une masse molaire, je pense que la source l'oublie comme implicite, et par abus de langage courant en anglais prend la dimension de particule représentative de cette moyenne calculée statistiquement en poids
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