Mar 17, 2004 15:54
21 yrs ago
35 viewers *
Dutch term
Ir. as title
Dutch to English
Tech/Engineering
Engineering (general)
I often encounter the title 'ir.' before some names as an abbreviation of 'engineer'. Architects often include this as a title. I go back and forth on this, but I have currently been dropping it from the English translation. Van Dale mentions 'B.Sc.' as a possibility. The concrete case I have in mind now is a letter to suppliers from a general contractor inviting them to sign and return an attached agreement. The letter is signed by the director of the general contracting company, ir. John Doe. I am inclinded to just sign the letter John Doe, but would appreciate how some of you handle this. Thanks ... Dan
Proposed translations
(English)
| 5 +9 | drop the title |
Chris Hopley
|
| 4 +2 | No English equivalent |
Peter Steenbergen
|
| 4 +2 | MSc |
Toiny Van der Putte-Rademakers
|
| 5 +1 | Similar to: US B.S.+M.S. degree, US Engineer's Degree, or UK taught ph.D. |
Rick Poleway
|
| 3 | Ir. |
Saskia Steur (X)
|
Proposed translations
+9
17 mins
Chris Hopley
Netherlands
Netherlands
Native in English
Netherlands
Dutch & German to English
Native in: English (Variants: US, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, British, UK, Irish)
Works in: German to English, Dutch to English, Flemish to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
16
Selected
drop the title
Dropping the title is the way I usually approach this problem too. The reader of the letter is probably not in the slightest bit interested in the writer's academic achievements and undoubtedly wouldn't even have the foggiest what 'ir.' means anyway.
The Nuffic Glossary offers this advice on 'ingenieur':
" 'ingenieur' (ir.)
No English equivalent. This was the title traditionally awarded to university graduates in engineering, technology and agriculture. The abbreviation 'ir.' is written before the name. Since 1986 an 'ingenieur' has been entitled to use the title 'Master', which is written after the name and abbreviated to M. Under the bachelor's-master's degree system, graduates of master's degree programmes can still choose to use this title if they wish."
http://www.nuffic.nl/glossary/
Although legally protected, academic titles are pretty badly abused. Van Dale doesn't help the matter much with its offering of bogus equivalents for academic credentials...
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Note added at 32 mins (2004-03-17 16:26:53 GMT)
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Parr & Lemmens in their \'Handboek voor de vertaler\' recommend dropping academic titles:
-> \"Nederlandse academische titels die in het buitenland niet bekend zijn, kunnen in Engelse teksten beter niet gebruikt worden. Dit geldt bijvoorbeeld voor drs. en ir. Voor Engelstaligen hebben deze afkortingen geen betekenis. ... Overigens is het zo dat een academische titel in Nederland vaak gebruikt wordt als aanspreektitel. In Angelsaksische landen geeft een titel eerder een bepaalde bevoegdheid aan en wordt in het dagelijks verkeer minder gebezigd.\" (pp. 330-331)
The Nuffic Glossary offers this advice on 'ingenieur':
" 'ingenieur' (ir.)
No English equivalent. This was the title traditionally awarded to university graduates in engineering, technology and agriculture. The abbreviation 'ir.' is written before the name. Since 1986 an 'ingenieur' has been entitled to use the title 'Master', which is written after the name and abbreviated to M. Under the bachelor's-master's degree system, graduates of master's degree programmes can still choose to use this title if they wish."
http://www.nuffic.nl/glossary/
Although legally protected, academic titles are pretty badly abused. Van Dale doesn't help the matter much with its offering of bogus equivalents for academic credentials...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 32 mins (2004-03-17 16:26:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Parr & Lemmens in their \'Handboek voor de vertaler\' recommend dropping academic titles:
-> \"Nederlandse academische titels die in het buitenland niet bekend zijn, kunnen in Engelse teksten beter niet gebruikt worden. Dit geldt bijvoorbeeld voor drs. en ir. Voor Engelstaligen hebben deze afkortingen geen betekenis. ... Overigens is het zo dat een academische titel in Nederland vaak gebruikt wordt als aanspreektitel. In Angelsaksische landen geeft een titel eerder een bepaalde bevoegdheid aan en wordt in het dagelijks verkeer minder gebezigd.\" (pp. 330-331)
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
13 mins
Ir.
I don't think you should drop a person's title or letters. If you had a Master's Degree you would want to sign a letter with M.A. in whatever language the letter is written.
When it is apprpriate you can add in between brackets what the English equivalent might be (a BA or a BSc, depending on the subject). In the Netherlands architects who have done the TH (Technische Hogeschool) can use their letters ir. internationally.
When it is apprpriate you can add in between brackets what the English equivalent might be (a BA or a BSc, depending on the subject). In the Netherlands architects who have done the TH (Technische Hogeschool) can use their letters ir. internationally.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Chris Hopley
: In NL and D, people love their titles and even put them on their doorbell. In an English letter, you never sign off with an academic title (with the possible exception of Dr and Prof.).
12 mins
|
| agree |
Rick Poleway
: Ir. graduates have similar status to ph.D and are no more common. In the UK, the ph.D is typically awarded after fewer years of study than the typical Ir. and with similar achievements. Anyone may contact me for further illustration of this.
3786 days
|
+2
19 mins
Peter Steenbergen
Netherlands
Netherlands
Native in Dutch
Specializes in field
Netherlands
Experience makes the difference!
Native in: Dutch (Variant: Netherlands) 
Works in: English to Dutch, Dutch to English
No English equivalent
This is what Nuffic has to say on the subject:
No English equivalent. This was the title traditionally awarded to university graduates in engineering, technology and agriculture. The abbreviation 'ir.' is written before the name. Since 1986 an 'ingenieur' has been entitled to use the title 'Master', which is written after the name and abbreviated to M. Under the bachelor's-master's degree system, graduates of master's degree programmes can still choose to use this title if they wish.
No English equivalent. This was the title traditionally awarded to university graduates in engineering, technology and agriculture. The abbreviation 'ir.' is written before the name. Since 1986 an 'ingenieur' has been entitled to use the title 'Master', which is written after the name and abbreviated to M. Under the bachelor's-master's degree system, graduates of master's degree programmes can still choose to use this title if they wish.
Reference:
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Adam Smith
: Here's another ref. http://www.engc.org.uk/registration/engineer_protect.asp
24 mins
|
| agree |
Kate Hudson (X)
45 mins
|
+2
1 hr
Toiny Van der Putte-Rademakers
Native in Dutch
Toiny Van der Putte-Rademakers
20 years in medical and nutrition
Native in: Dutch (Variant: Netherlands)
Works in: English to Dutch, Dutch to English
MSc
An Ir. is entitled to the title of Master of Science or Master of Technology. A friend of mine has just finished Technische Natuurkunde (Technological Physics) at Eindhoven University. On his ir-diploma is mentioned that he is entitled to bear the title of Master of Science or Master of Technology.
Of course, there is also the title of Ing. (engineer), which always comes after a person's name, but this title is given to someone who has graduated from a Higher Technical School (HBO-opleiding - higher vocational eduction).
Of course, there is also the title of Ing. (engineer), which always comes after a person's name, but this title is given to someone who has graduated from a Higher Technical School (HBO-opleiding - higher vocational eduction).
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Lindsay Edwards
: why not MSc (Eng)? After all, if the guy likes to use his title in Dutch he would probably like to use it in English to, and he did earn it :-)
3 hrs
|
| agree |
George Vardanyan
: of MS
3 hrs
|
| neutral |
Rick Poleway
: The bologna agreement entitles the graduate to use "Master of Science". I have one. However, while the Bologna term "M.Sc" is used, I use M.S. because the degree is similar to a US B.S.+M.S. & far more extensive (about double) a UK B.Sc + M.Sc
3786 days
|
+1
3786 days
Similar to: US B.S.+M.S. degree, US Engineer's Degree, or UK taught ph.D.
The Ir. degree must be obtained at a "Universiteit" i.e. a top research university (all are ranked similar to the top half of the UK Russell Group)
At TU Delft, the most notable of the three awarding the Ir. degree, the typical study duration is 7+ years. The course content, and minimum study hours of the kandidaat examen alone [first half of the Ir.] (according to Bologna/NUFFIC, misleadingly labelled "B.Sc") is demonstrably the same as a UK B.Sc + M.Sc combination.
The Dutch Kandidaat (first half of Ir.) and Doctoraal (second half) align reasonably with the American B.S.(4 to5 years) and M.S. (2 to 3 years)
Many Ir. graduates extend their thesis (making it indistinguishable from a UK ph.D in content, despite the Ir's greater breadth, and lesser specialism) - this puts some Ir. engineers at a level similar to US. B.S.+M.S.+Eng.Degree graduates, or US B.S. + taught ph.D graduates.
Note that this is based on course-content, required minimum hours/term-time & typical durations. Unfortunately, the Bologna system ambiguously uses the term Master - a good American comparison, but a very poor comparison with the UK.
At TU Delft, the most notable of the three awarding the Ir. degree, the typical study duration is 7+ years. The course content, and minimum study hours of the kandidaat examen alone [first half of the Ir.] (according to Bologna/NUFFIC, misleadingly labelled "B.Sc") is demonstrably the same as a UK B.Sc + M.Sc combination.
The Dutch Kandidaat (first half of Ir.) and Doctoraal (second half) align reasonably with the American B.S.(4 to5 years) and M.S. (2 to 3 years)
Many Ir. graduates extend their thesis (making it indistinguishable from a UK ph.D in content, despite the Ir's greater breadth, and lesser specialism) - this puts some Ir. engineers at a level similar to US. B.S.+M.S.+Eng.Degree graduates, or US B.S. + taught ph.D graduates.
Note that this is based on course-content, required minimum hours/term-time & typical durations. Unfortunately, the Bologna system ambiguously uses the term Master - a good American comparison, but a very poor comparison with the UK.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Rudy Jakma (X)
: The first academic degree is the "Bachelor's", many students follow with a "Master's" and eventually a "PhD" or Doctorate. This is more a specialization. Terms used here at National University of Ireland (Maynooth)
498 days
|
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