May 26, 2020 16:22
4 yrs ago
58 viewers *
French term

auprès de (in a passive construction)

French to English Law/Patents Government / Politics
Statuts of a high-level grant-awarding scientific institution.

"
...

Dans les régions où sont implantées plusieurs unités de recherche de l'institut, le directeur général peut nommer des administrateurs délégués.

Il peut être créé auprès des administrateurs délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs composés de membres élus par les personnels des unités de recherche et des services communs de la région et par les autres personnels de l'institut exerçant leur activité dans la région.

Les modalités des élections, la composition et les règles de fonctionnement de ces conseils sont fixées par arrêté conjoint des ministres de tutelle."

Auprès de is always a bit of a tricky one in my experience. Here I am not quite sure whether it means something like "for (the benefit of)" or something like "besides/with" or something like "in relation to".

I believe the administrateurs délégués don't have any say in the matter. But even on that I am not entirely sure with this passive grammatical construction.

Discussion

Mpoma (asker) May 27, 2020:
@ph-b Thanks for your added thoughts. Certainly "to" can be a good translation for a government advisor, conveying what your CNRTL definition gives. Or indeed you might say "Secretary of State to the minister for X". But, as a native EN speaker, I'm afraid you can't say "scientific boards/councils may be created to the delegated directors" - this would be meaningless. I think it is because certain roles (e.g. "advisor") fairly strongly imply and need another party. Ironically, of course, conseil can translate, precisely, as "advisor". But not here, because these are not individuals.
ph-b (X) May 27, 2020:
Render unto Caesar... Just to add (lack of space above) that I borrowed "There may be created" from Adrian MM.'s answer below.
ph-b (X) May 27, 2020:
Don't mention Dominic Cummings Except the BBC has this to say about him: "Dominic Cummings is more than just a run-of-the-mill adviser to Prime Minister Boris Johnson." ( https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49101464?intlink_from_u... ) If I were to translate this, I'd write: Dominic Cummings... conseiller auprès du Premier ministre.... This "to" sounds exactly like auprès de to my non-native ear. There are many reliable examples of conseiller auprès du président de la République/Premier ministre/ministre de..., just as many as "adviser to (whoever)". This fits in with 3. [Introd. un compl. désignant une pers. physique exerçant des fonctions officielles ou une pers. morale (organisme, institution officiels)] Exprime outre le lieu une idée de mission et de présence accréditée which I quoted from CNRTL last night (under I A 3 here: https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/auprès de ) That to me is the meaning of auprès de here. Is it possible to write sthg like: "There may be created (advisory scientific committees?) to the (administrators?) consisting of..."? Cf. "The Trade Union Advisory Committee (TUAC) to the OECD" (https://tuac.org/)
Elisabeth Richard May 26, 2020:
ambiguous In my opinion it is ambiguous in French. If I had to reword it in French, I would probably go for "au niveau de", which is suitably vague! In English, maybe I would go with something like "in relation to"?
Mpoma (asker) May 26, 2020:
A pageful of definitions ph-b's link: https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/auprès

As I said, I find auprès de a tricky one. Thanks.
ph-b (X) May 26, 2020:
2 (1647). Rapports que l'on a avec une personne, une collectivité. L'ambassadeur de Sa Majesté britannique auprès de la République française. Agir auprès de qqn pour obtenir qqch. Le Grand Robert de la langue française
3. [Introd. un compl. désignant une pers. physique exerçant des fonctions officielles ou une pers. morale (organisme, institution officiels)] Exprime outre le lieu une idée de mission et de présence accréditée. Ex. : ...le messager de Beethoven auprès de Goethe... - CNRTL
PS I was referring to one of the comments to one of the answers.
PPS "for the benefit of" could work, but I would say "with" is the closest of your suggestions : roughly, they're with the administrators to help them. I like Danielle's answers. And Timothy is right about the impersonal.
Mpoma (asker) May 26, 2020:
@ph-b I don't think anyone's suggested that it means "from amongst". As a native speaker, what's your feeling: is it with a sense of
1) "for the benefit of"? Or
2) "with"? Or
3) could it even by "by" (agency)? Or
4) is it in fact ambiguous?
Mpoma (asker) May 26, 2020:
@TonyM Oh sorry, no, maybe I've got the grammatical term wrong. How do we refer to "Il est créé X..."? i.e. "X is created... ". Isn't that a "passive construction"?

The phrase is no mystery whatsoever, I'm just wondering what the precise meaning of auprès de is here. The fact I was drawing attention to in the question was merely that the choice of this particular construction may make the meaning of auprès de slightly harder to pin down than with another way of putting it.
ph-b (X) May 26, 2020:
"from amongst" is not what auprès de means here. The members of these conseils are not elected amongst the administrateurs, they're appointed to assist them in taking decisions.
Tony M May 26, 2020:
@ Asker It isn't really the passive construction 'être créé' so much as the impersonal construction 'il peut...' that seems to me to cliud the issue here.
If you re-write it as Timothy has done without the impersonal, it seems to me clear enough: « des conseils scientifiques consultatifs peuvent être créé... »

Proposed translations

+6
15 mins
Selected

reporting to

I've looked at the original source text for this and some related material (Order of 26 September 1984, link below). It seems clear from that the conseils scientifiques consultatifs are not appointed by the administrateurs délégués. I think the sense here is more likely to be the fifth sense given by Larousse online: 'En relation avec quelqu'un, une institution : Un ambassadeur auprès d'un État étranger.' As far as I can understand it, the conseils are there to assist the administrateurs délégués by providing them with information.

So, perhaps something like 'Advisory scientific committees may be constituted, reporting to the managing directors. They shall be made up of ...'.
Note from asker:
Thanks for the useful links. So the sense is quite specifically "for (the benefit of)", but you go one step further to conclude that it implies a formal relationship of dependency. That may be clear from the legislation, but I'm not sure it can be deduced from the sentence alone. Which isn't to say that I won't translate it as per your suggestion!
I spoke too soon. See the fabulous definition page unearthed by ph-b: https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/aupr%C3%A8s ... "Exprime outre le lieu une idée de mission et de présence accréditée"
Peer comment(s):

agree Yolanda Broad
9 mins
agree ph-b (X) : "assist" is the 1st thing that came to mind before I saw your answer. Not for me to discuss your choice of words, but, yes, they're created to assist and report to the administrateurs.
12 mins
agree Yvonne Gallagher
20 mins
agree Libby Cohen : Especially in light of the explanation provided by ph-b.
35 mins
Yes, very useful definition from ph-b. Thank you.
agree Tony M
52 mins
agree AllegroTrans
3 hrs
neutral Daryo : yes and no - wouldn't that imply some kind of hierarchical subordination? I don't see advisers or a consultative body "reporting" the same way as a sales manager would be "reporting" to the MD - it's not that kind of relationship.
8 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks"
+1
12 mins

with

In my reading of this, it seems straightforward ...the syntax is reversed with the impersonal "il peut être créé..." I read it as saying "consultative scientific councils/advisory boards may be created with managing directors/delegated administrators
Peer comment(s):

agree Yolanda Broad
12 mins
Thanks Yolanda
Something went wrong...
-2
1 hr

including/consistent of/formed by

It can be created with/including/ consistent of/formed by the managing directors.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Tony M : As Ph-B has pointed out, this is not the sense of 'auprès de' in this text — and even if it had been, 'consistent of' is not correct EN.
20 mins
disagree AllegroTrans : I agree with above disagree
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
5 hrs
French term (edited): (CH) Il peut être créé auprès de (impersonal construction) ... des conseils scientifiques consultat

There may be created out of the ranks of ... consultative scientific committees

The first ProZ weblinked answer of 'from among' triggered my idea of from the ranks of.

Interestingly for grammatical purposes, it is not 'Ils peuvent être créé(s)
and the Germanic-type 'es können bei den Geschäftsführern / führinnen .... errichtet werden' construction, plus Elizabeth R's discussion entry of an ambiguity, suggests that this is not France, but Belgium, Lux or Switzerland etc.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Daryo : don't know German so have no idea how you extrapolated this from the text in German, but HERE it's not "out of the ranks of" - these are two different groups: managers vs scientists.
3 hrs
disagree Tony M : As Ph-B has said, this is not the meaning of 'auprès de' in this situation.
8 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
8 hrs
French term (edited): [des conseils scientifiques consultatifs] auprès [des administrateurs délégués]

[...] attached to [...]

this is the same kind of relationship as between an expert (or a court interpreter) and the court using their expertise.

as in

"traducteurs interprètes assermentés auprès du tribunal XYZ"

Il peut être créé auprès des administrateurs délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs
=
It is possible to create Advisory scientific committees (?) attached to delegated directors(/managers ?)

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Note added at 8 hrs (2020-05-27 00:53:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

IOW the beneficiary of their wisdom/opinions would be the "administrateur délégué" to which they are attached.
Peer comment(s):

agree Tony M
5 hrs
Thanks!
neutral Danielle Coleman : I agree that the beneficiary of their wisdom/opinions would the "administrateur délégué", but I think "reporting to" captures that relationship better than "attached to". "Reporting to" does not necessarily imply a relationship of subordination.
12 hrs
Something went wrong...
-4
45 mins

next to / with / in the opinion of

The above definition is from a dictionary.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2020-05-27 07:20:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If 'with' is not acceptable as a translation of 'auprès de' then 'for the benefit of' could be an alternative used instead of 'with' in the above sentence.
Example sentence:

Il peut être créé auprès des administrations délégués des conseils scientifiques consultatifs composé des membres élus par les personnels des unités de recherches et des services communes de la région et par des autres personnels et de l'instit

It can be created with administrations delegated from the scientific consulting councils composed of members who were elected by staff from a research unit and from communal services in the region and other members in the Institute.

Peer comment(s):

disagree Tony M : Completely rong interpretation of the source text, and not terribly meaningful nor idiomatic in EN either. This is the sort of situation where basic dictionaires somply do not suffice.
35 mins
disagree AllegroTrans : Disparate array of suggestions, none of which are ccontextual; we can all use the dictionary
3 hrs
disagree Daryo : It never occured to me before, but looks like dictionaries are like dynamite - handle with care / use according to the manual, or the result is not nice...
7 hrs
disagree SafeTex : So the "panel" can be put together next to, with, and in the opinion of the delegates ?!?!?! I assume you are offering us a choice and not all three terms but how do we even know which one to chose from your selection? And they don't mean the same thing
10 hrs
Something went wrong...
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