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Propreté des données patrimoniales
sensitivomoteur

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

béret d\'écaille

English translation:

scalloped beret

Added to glossary by Miranda Joubioux (X)
Apr 11, 2011 13:39
13 yrs ago
French term

béret d'écaille

French to English Art/Literary Architecture
Architecture magazine
Target = UK

Despite this being an article about the architecture of a certain type of housing in the Pyrénées, I've chosen to put this in clothing deliberately, since I feel it is here that I will find the answer.

De ses toits d’ardoises anthracite, on dirait six ou sept mille bérets d’écaille coiffant un troupeau pétrifié.


Would this be a Rastafarian style beret?
Proposed translations (English)
3 little "hats"/"berets" decorated with "fish scales"/"scallops"
3 +1 little hats overlapping like fish scales
3 seashell beret
3 berets, laid fishscale style, topping a petrified herd
Change log

Apr 11, 2011 20:13: B D Finch changed "Field" from "Other" to "Art/Literary" , "Field (specific)" from "Textiles / Clothing / Fashion" to "Architecture"

Discussion

Miranda Joubioux (X) (asker) Apr 12, 2011:
merci beaucoup pour tes remarques Petitavoine. Cela me conforte dans mon idée de traduction. Je suis d'accord qu'il faut garder le terme beret!
Merci à toi et également a BD Finch pour vos liens. Ca aide à visualiser.
Jocelyne Cuenin Apr 12, 2011:
C'est vrai que je n'ai pas pensé aux ruisseaux J'avais les yeux fixés sur l'Océan. Si vous modifiez un peu la phrase : je viens de voir "scallopped plates" (assiettes), vous pourriez certainement parler de scallopped slates sans que cela prête à confusion ...
B D Finch Apr 12, 2011:
@Petitavoine I like your connection with the pilgrims' scallop shell. However, there are plenty of trout in the streams and salmon are being reintroduced.
Jocelyne Cuenin Apr 12, 2011:
béret et scallop Parlant des Pyrénées, je garderais "béret", car ils sont assez indissociables. On parle donc de toits couverts d'ardoises en forme d'écailles. Franchement, écailles de poisson fait un peu déplacé en montagne :-) Par contre, j'aime bien l'idée de "scallop" non seulement à cause du système de pose typique comme le montrent les photos de BDFinch et Lara, mais aussi à cause de la coquille St Jacques. La structure et la couleur de la coquille correspondraient plus ou moins et les Pyrénées sont quand même le passage obligé sur le chemin de St Jacques de Compostelle. En tout cas, j'aime beaucoup l'image : troupeau est typique des montagnes, pétrifié = de pierre, la coquille St-Jacques des pélérins ...
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/10647979
B D Finch Apr 12, 2011:
@Miranda I think it would take a very large leap of imagination to think that roofs like these:
http://www.batiancien-ariege.com/Nouvel-article,364.html
are anything like a sequined beret.
Please excuse my having re-assigned the category of your question, but the fashion angle seemed to be leading to completely wrong answers, from me too. The preceding sentence that you now give confirms my opinion of what this is really about. In the neighbouring department of Aude, the landscape and architecture is more typically Mediterranean with reddish rock, cypresses, houses with white walls and red canal-tiled roofs. By contrast, the mountainous part of Ariège is characterised by cooler, rainier weather, lusher vegetation, grey stone and heavy slate-roofed houses.
Rachel Fell Apr 12, 2011:
Hi Miranda, re your photo, well that would be a sequinned beret http://tinyurl.com/5sucouh - but the roofs don't sound shiny/glinty like that
Miranda Joubioux (X) (asker) Apr 12, 2011:
Sorry for not having been around to give you instant feedback.
The sentence preceding this on is :
On n’y voit ni tuiles rouges ni maisons blanches, mais de graves demeures grises aux volets pastels, parfois d’un rose passé.
IMO the writer is describing the houses saying they look like a petrified herd wearing berets.
I found an image for beret d'écaille
http://www.souleiado.com/beret-paillette-or
I think scalloped might be appropriate. Anything to do with fish scales doesn't sound quite right in this region.
Lara Barnett Apr 11, 2011:
Fish scale/scallop shell design in architecture This picture shows how each slate is like a "fish scale" or a "scallop shell".
http://www.dreamstime.com/fish-scale-design-on-wall-schachen...
B D Finch Apr 11, 2011:
A note on the troupeau Though I assumed this was a flock, it could be a herd - a lot of the local cattle are pale grey.
B D Finch Apr 11, 2011:
Never mind the shells I think that Leslie has the right idea about fishscale pattern slates:
"Ici, ardoises grises rustiques calibrées, mordorées et taillées en écaille de poisson. ..."
www.les-ardoisiers.com/ardoise-couverture.htm
"... sous une toiture à deux pentes recouverte d'ardoises taillées en écailles, ... Unique dans l'architecture d'Ariège: nombre de bâtiments sont couverts ..."
archilibre.org/tradition/archidariege/promenade

They are, indeed, "scalloped" as the typical pattern uses slates with a curved bottom edge.
Gail Bond Apr 11, 2011:
Scalloped? In clothing descriptions, écaille is sometimes used to describe 'scalloped' (as in a scalloped hem). Could that help?
Sandra Mouton Apr 11, 2011:
I think it is quite pointless to indulge in a contest about which area of France has more pointy slate roofs or bérets.
@Leslie I had assumed that the sentence was written in correct French. In which case, my interpretation is as follows: in the previous sentence, something is described (perhaps the surrounding mountains). This something, when seen from the slate roofs, looks like a petrified flock coiffed with six or seven thousands tortoiseshell berets.
If however the sentence is intended to describe the slate roofs as tortoiseshell berets with the petrified sheep being the houses themselves, the sentence should read "On dirait que ses toits d'ardoises anthracite sont six ou sept mille bérets d'écaille coiffant un troupeau pétrifié" or "De ses toits d'ardoise anthracite, on dirait qu'ils sont..."
Perhaps the asker could provide the sentence immediately before this one.
B D Finch Apr 11, 2011:
@Sandra I think you are missing the whole point of the image, which is of a petrified flock of sheep wearing shell berets. Slate roofs are also more typical of the part of the Pyrenees where I live (Ariège), than of the Basque country. The buildings in question would not be the sort that invited climbing onto the roof, which in any case would not be necessary in order to see the view. Flocks of sheep and goats are also typical of the area, but tortoises are not. Obviously, seashells are not very useful material for making spectacle frames, however, Pyreneen slate roofs do not look at all like tortoiseshell. As the slates would be rough, they could be said to look something like oyster shells.
Leslie Marcus Apr 11, 2011:
if the view is seen from the roof If the view is seen from the roofs, as Sandra says, then what exactly are the berets "coiffant"..? I imagined the roofs were over the "troupeau pétrifié" which was referring to the stone houses...Have I got it all wrong?
Sandra Mouton Apr 11, 2011:
@BD Finch I think the roofs aren't the view, but the other way round, the view is seen from the roofs ("DE ses toits d'ardoise").
I thought at first that the "de" meant "about" but in this case it would be "on dirait que...".
By the way, "écaille" as a material, as is the case here, never refers to seashell but only to tortoiseshell (see "lunettes d'écaille", "boîte en écaille").
About the basquitude du béret, of course no specific region can claim the exclusive in béret-related matters, it's just that "béret basque" is a set phrase referring to a style of béret.
B D Finch Apr 11, 2011:
@Sandra Ecaille means any sort of shell and as the roofs are grey slate, the reference can't be to tortoiseshell, as it is the wrong colour.
B D Finch Apr 11, 2011:
Basque? The Ariègeois, Béarnais and various other Pyreneen locals would object to the Basques grabbing their beret. However, I have noticed in old films and photos from World War II that the fascist milice wore a typical, large Pyreneen beret as part of their uniform.
Sandra Mouton Apr 11, 2011:
In a Pyrénées context, "béret" will suggest almost always a "béret basque" rather than a red yellow and green Bob Marley style cap.
"Écaille" singular seems to refer to tortoiseshell.

Proposed translations

5 hrs
Selected

little "hats"/"berets" decorated with "fish scales"/"scallops"

As an English speaker I would associate the word hats with rooftops if I were to talk figuratively. I think if you carry over the term "beret" into an English text it may not give the same idea, but then again, if you want to make the point that this is actually France being described, then "beret" could work just as well because the English do identify strongly with "beret" as being a French hat. (So this explains my two options).

As for scallops, I have added this as an alternative as this seems to be the shape seen on some roof slating which is pretty to look at, and the term sounds a lot prettier. The term "fish scales" does not always have pretty connotations to English readers and scallops may work better. But this website shows how "fish scale pattern" can be used to describe architectural detail.

http://www.thefishsociety.co.uk/fish-detail_scallop-shells_2...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2011-04-11 19:06:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You could also say:
"Six or seven thousand berets covered in SCALLOP SHELLS"

If you look at the tenth photo down on this web page of slate designs on roofs, you can see the scalloped effect it sounds like is being referred to:
http://www.jenkinsslate.com/install_styles.htm

Also a link to "scallop shells" if you need any inspiration:
http://www.thefishsociety.co.uk/fish-detail_scallop-shells_2...




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2011-04-11 19:07:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OR:
"Six or seven thousand berets FINISHED in SCALLOP SHELLS..."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2011-04-11 19:14:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

On the other hand, if each ROOF is being defined as a scallop, rather than each SLATE being defined as a scallop, you could say:

"Six or seven thousand scallop shell hats keeping in a place a terrified..." (... here you could move the idea slightly to horses if the "terrified herd" does not carry over, i.e. "scallop shell hats keeping in place an UNRULY MANE" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mane)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Scallop was the word I needed. I think this is the image that is being conveyed. Many thanks to everyone for your help on this one."
9 mins

seashell beret

Not Rasta - the beret is a traditional form of headgear in the Pyrenees, as elsewhere in France, but the locals often don't acknowledge that and anyway the Pyreneen beret is larger and floppier and more or less exclusively worn by men. The Pyrenees also link the Med and the Atlantic coasts, so you could decide that a special form of seashell is required: oystershells perhaps, as there are plenty of them at both ends of the chaine.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Sandra Mouton : Écaille doesn't refer to seashell here. See discussion entry.
51 mins
No, as I have now realised, it refers to the fishscale pattern of the slates. It certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with tortoiseshell.
Something went wrong...
57 mins
French term (edited): béret d\'écaille

berets, laid fishscale style, topping a petrified herd

I don't think the importance is really the kind of beret, although they are big and black in the Pyrenees, but how the roofs resemble berets overlapping to give an overall scaly appearance. Lots of architectural texts talk about slate roofs being fish-scale / fishscale; you might use "tortoiseshell" however the color it evokes for me is light brown and not black like anthracite/slate roofs.
Reference:

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1540&bih=739&q=black+slate+roofing&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

Peer comment(s):
disagree Sandra Mouton : Écaille would be plural and preceded by "en" and not "d'" if it referred to the disposition of the bérets like scales on fish skin.
4 mins
agree B D Finch : I like that idea, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to fit the grammar of "bérets d’écaille". Beret-like roofs made of fish-scale pattern slates. I find the number puzzling and wonder where there are 6-7000 slate roofs.
32 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
7 hrs

little hats overlapping like fish scales

that's how it strikes me
Peer comment(s):
agree Catherine Gilsenan
14 hrs
Thank you Catherine :-)
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