Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

praticien

English translation:

praticien / highly skilled sculptor's assistant

Added to glossary by Helen Shiner
Jun 26, 2009 08:49
15 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term

praticien

French to English Art/Literary Architecture
This is from a descriptive text on the exterior decoration of the Palais de la Découverte:

La décoration des façades extérieures du Grand Palais se compose de frises polychromes, de groupes monumentaux, de statues et d’ornements, tous conçus en atelier par des peintres et des sculpteurs avant d’être reproduits directement sur le bâtiment par des *praticiens.*

Thanks!
Change log

Jul 3, 2009 12:46: Helen Shiner Created KOG entry

Jul 3, 2009 12:47: Helen Shiner changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/882779">Helen Shiner's</a> old entry - "praticien"" to ""praticien""

Discussion

Christopher Crockett Jun 26, 2009:
Thanks, Emma Quite a scultptress there. Presumably her understanding of the term is that which is au courant among sculptors.
Emma Paulay Jun 26, 2009:
For Christopher Sorry, ran out of space below:
http://www.nella-buscot.com/lexique_p2.php
Christopher Crockett Jun 26, 2009:
No Hard & Fast Rules The issue of whether or not to translate a term is, of course, a tricky one and can only be settled on a case-by-case basis, depending at the least upon (1) the term itself; (2) the ability (or inability) of a reader to discern the meaning of the term clearly from the context in which it appears; and --oh yeah-- (3) the availability of a more or less precisely synonymous term in the other language. At one extreme is the option of leaving the original in place; at the other extreme, of giving a long explanation (and thereby interrupting the flow of the author's limpid narrative prose). Most often, for technical terms which don't have a precisely equivalent English word or term (or the English word might be ambiguous or confusing), some sort of compromise seems to be called for. That's what I suggest should be done here.
Helen Shiner Jun 26, 2009:
I am sure that in my 20 years as an art historian (this is getting embarrassing by the way) in this particular field, I have probably not learnt a huge amount about medieval terminology, but I am not sure what that proves. I am now departing from this discussion, because I have stated my case. I hope the Asker will take note of what I have said.
Christopher Crockett Jun 26, 2009:
Yet another good reason not to leave it in the French is that I can't find an appropriate definition of it in the Grand Robert, *or* the TLF *or* the on-line Oxford-French Dictionary (http://www.oxfordlanguagedictionaries.com/view/EntryPage.htm... And the Larousse Lexis definition doesn't fit. Where's the hapless Anglophone reader to go for understanding, Helen?
Christopher Crockett Jun 26, 2009:
19th c. Beaux-Arts architecture is definitely not my forté, Helen, and if you say that a lot of the *technical* literature treating it leaves the French in tact, I'll certainly believe you. However, the fact that I've been an Art Hysterian for over 40 years (though admittedly primarily a medievalist) and *I've* never, ever seen the term --as well as the fact that the LL definition which Bourth found does *not* fit what we have in Ysabel's text-- suggests that we need some explanation of it in the target language.
Helen Shiner Jun 26, 2009:
Christopher why should we not leave it in FR if all other respected authorities and commentators/art historians etc. do so? Why should we differ and go against the accepted terminology?
Christopher Crockett Jun 26, 2009:
The problem with Bourth's Larousse definition is that it doesn't seem to fit the context of Ysabel's text. These guys were not charged with "roughing out" the sculptures, but with executing the [finished] work of the master. Alas, we can't leave it in the French, for the simple reason that some readers might think it means "general practitioners" or, if they have access to the LL, "roughing out sculptors" --neither one of which definitions fits this context.
Bourth (X) Jun 26, 2009:
"My concern is to assist the Asker ... ... to get the right answer". Mine too. But if I can titillate their grey cells and their funny bone too by the same occasion, so much the better.
Helen Shiner Jun 26, 2009:
Not so Bourth your humour is legendary. My concern is to assist the Asker to get the right answer. I know this subject intimately and am currently writing on it in my doctoral research.
Anne-Marie Grant (X) Jun 26, 2009:
I'm sorry I was approaching this question with the general public in mind - I was imagining it was a guide for visitors or something of that ilk. Obviously, if it is a serious architectural text then Helen is the expert!
Bourth (X) Jun 26, 2009:
You obviously haven't learnt to appreciate what I like to think of as my sense of humour, Helen. It's my little way of letting the wheat sort itself out from the chaff.
Helen Shiner Jun 26, 2009:
Bourth Dogbodies? I don't think so - these were highly skilled craftspeople and as my answer indicates the work was handed over to them to produce the final work - hence the issue of authenticity. It was not something that was done throughout history, but specifically relates to the late 19th century and Rodin's practice as a modeller. There was a move away from this in the early 20th century when architects started to hire independent, often avant-garde sculptors who previously would not have dreamed of taking on such commissions.
Bourth (X) Jun 26, 2009:
dogsbodies, rough sculptors Praticien ... 3. Bx-arts Ouvrier qui dégrossit l'ouvrage et le met en état d'être achevé par le sculpteur
[Larousse Lexis]

However, your text seems to suggest, by reproduits, that the praticiens did the final sculpture. Is this contradicted further on in the text by any chance?

Proposed translations

+2
50 mins
Selected

praticien

Actually this is generally left in French, though there seems to be a slight typo in the first link

Neo-classicism was reconfigured in terms of an archaic Greek ideal (the Egyptianizing Kouros rather than the explosive movement of Hellenistic Greece). Bodies aligned themselves in military phalanxes (Francois Rude's Marseillaise, 1833), or arranged themselves in tepid erotic displays (Antonio Canova's Pauline Borghese as Venus, 1808). Only the pressures of a restless, industrializing modernity would threaten the long reign of these classical echoes. Towards the end of the nineteenth century, twin emphases on specularity and an inner-directed abstraction (its seeming obverse) rendered figural sculpture increasingly irrelevant. Bridged by the accomplishments of French Impressionist sculptor Auguste Rodin (1840-1917), the tenure of the classical body ended, and the twentieth-century body emerged — fragmented, pocked by light, insistently unfinished, and usually cast in industrial scale foundries rather than carved ‘by hand’ (even if they had often been the hands of skilled practiciens).
http://www.answers.com/topic/sculpture

A problem of the period that was brought into focus by Rodin in his marbles was that of authenticity. The deputing of the final execution of carved works to assistants or professional praticiens had been practised before the 19th century, but as the technical aspects of sculpture became more developed and the entrepreneurial systems facilitating the division of tasks became more sophisticated, a reaction set in, exacerbated by the virtuosic appearance at the Salons of a number of marble showpieces depicting mythological subjects by such sculptors as Denys Puech and Laurent-Honoré Marqueste (1848-1920). The reaction had already been registered by the Ecole, where classes in stone- and marble-carving were instituted in 1883, but it was in the exhibitions of sculpture at the Salons of the Société Nationale des Beaux-Arts during the 1890s that a more fundamental revision made its appearance, such Symbolist sculptors as Jean Dampt, Jean Carriès, Jules Desbois and Pierre Roche preferring the dual identities of poet and craftsman to the grandiose conception of statuaire and finding alternatives to marble in wood, pewter, ceramic, wax, gypsum, ivory, lead and combinations of these.
http://www.harrisantiques.com/French_Sculpture.php

I write myself on architectural sculpture and I would leave it in French too.

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Note added at 54 mins (2009-06-26 09:43:55 GMT)
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You could say 'sculptor's assistant' but since that takes away from the technical ability of these men, I would stick with the French.
http://rodinweb.com/report_rom/1_02b.htm

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Note added at 4 hrs (2009-06-26 13:49:17 GMT)
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direct carving. The practice of producing sculpture (particularly stone sculpture) by cutting directly into the material, as opposed to having it reproduced from a plaster model using mechanical aids and assistants. Although this might seem a purely technical matter, in the 20th century it became associated with aesthetic, ethical, and even political issues, particularly in Britain (where it was related to the idea of truth to materials) and in France.

During the 19th century it was customary for sculpture to be exhibited in plaster; it was much more expensive and time-consuming to produce bronze casts or marble carvings, so these were usually made only when firmly commissioned. A device called a pointing machine enabled the sculptor to make an exact replica or enlargement of the plaster model by taking a series of measured points on it and transferring them to the copy. It was common for both bronzes and marbles to be produced from the same model and for smaller versions to be made for the domestic market (for an example see JOHN, SIR WILLIAM GOSCOMBE). This situation reflected economic realities (a sculptor would want to maximize earnings from a work in which much time and effort had been invested), but it also indicated a priority of idea and subject over material—the sculptor's artistry being located in the concept and form, rather than in the handicraft. A successful sculptor could thus become the administrator of a large studio producing numerous, almost identical versions of popular works (Rodin employed many assistants, including artists of the calibre of Bourdelle, Despiau, and Pompon, and he rarely touched hammer and chisel himself, only occasionally adding final touches to his works in marble). This kind of procedure had been attacked by John Ruskin (1819–1900), the most influential British art critic of the 19th century, in his Aratra Pentelici: Six Lectures on the Elements of Sculpture (1872), where he denounced the ‘modern system of modelling the work in clay, getting it into form by machinery, and by the hands of subordinates'. Ruskin argued that the sculptor of such works thinks in clay and not in marble and that ‘neither he nor the public recognize the touch of the chisel as expressive of personal feeling and that nothing is looked for except mechanical polish'. In embryonic form he was stating two fundamental tenets of the philosophy of direct carving as it later developed: that stone, as opposed to plaster, has particular qualities of its own; and that there is a special relationship between the hand of the artist and the material he uses.

In spite of Ruskin's influence and the force of his arguments, it was not until the early years of the 20th century—when his authority as a critic and prophet was waning—that his ideas on direct carving were put into practice by sculptors in Britain. Among the most important pioneers were Jacob Epstein, Eric Gill, and Henri Gaudier-Brzeska, who collectively illustrate some of the range of issues involved in the practice. For Epstein, the activity of carving was linked to his interest in sculpture from outside the Graeco-Roman tradition, such as that of Assyria and Africa, and it reflected his contact in Paris with Brancusi and Modigliani, who had similar interests. For Gill, a return to carving was a return to a medieval practice, through which he hoped to overcome the iniquitous effect of industrialism in dividing the work of the thinker and maker. For Gaudier-Brzeska, carving was equated with a struggle that was both manual and creative, an aspect of a ‘virile’ art that contrasted with the ‘feminine’ modelling which had dominated the previous generation of New Sculptors; he wrote that in the sculpture he admired ‘every inch of the surface is won at the point of a chisel'. The difficult economic conditions in which Gaudier-Brzeska lived also had an influence on his working methods, for he was dependent on found or even stolen fragments of stone in odd shapes that would suggest forms and subjects.

After the First World War a number of British sculptors, including Barbara Hepworth, Henry Moore, and John Skeaping, practised direct carving as a dogma, while others, such as Frank Dobson and Leon Underwood, worked as both carvers and modellers. Whereas academic sculptors favoured white marble because of the smooth and detailed finish it made possible, these direct carvers used a wider variety of stone, which they exploited for its range of texture and colour (see HOPTON WOOD STONE and HORNTON STONE). However, direct carving was not associated exclusively with avant-garde artists; it was advocated, for example, by the conservative critic Kineton Parkes (1865–1938) in articles in Architectural Review and in his book The Art of Carved Sculpture (2 vols, 1931).

In France there was a similar development, whereby direct carving (taille directe in French) moved from being chiefly an avant-garde concern before 1914 to wider acceptance in the 1920s. Brancusi and Derain made direct carvings as early as 1907, and they were almost certainly preceded by the more traditional Joseph Bernard (1866–1931). The issue of precedence is complicated by the existence of an artisanal tradition of stone carving in provincial France; one of the major exponents of taille directe, André Abbal (1876–1953), came from a family of stonecarvers working near Moissac in the south of the country.

The death of Rodin in 1917 had important consequences for public awareness of the issues involved in direct carving, for until then it had not been widely appreciated how much the most famous sculptor of the day had relied on assistants (praticiens) in the physical production of his work. In 1919 there was a scandal when a number of fakes of his work were revealed, leading to legal action, and the press coverage included accounts by some of Rodin's praticiens of the extent of their involvement. The critic Louis Vauxcelles took advantage of the situation to attack the ‘lie of modelling'—the mechanical transcription of one material into another. The scandal encouraged the acceptance of direct carving, which became such a vogue that by 1922 even the praticien Charles Jonchery (1873–1937), who had been implicated in the Rodin scandal, was exhibiting work described as taille directe.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O5-directcarving.html

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Note added at 7 days (2009-07-03 12:48:33 GMT) Post-grading
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Thanks for the points, Ysabel812
Peer comment(s):

neutral Christopher Crockett : The problem with leaving the French is that some hapless medieval art historian who's never seen the term will go to his dictionary and think that it means " general practitioner."
3 hrs
Maybe if said hapless medievalist were prepared to accept another meaning for the word?
agree DonM : As there is no direct equivalent in English and the term already has some currency among experts, leaving it in French makes most sense to me. I would leave it in French and gloss it in brackets the first time it appears in the text.
4 hrs
Thanks, DonM - yes this is the best way forward. Praticiens with sculptor's assistants in brackets is what seems to be done in the links I provide, I might suggest 'highly skilled sculptor's assistants'
agree rkillings : Or toss the French word and go with something general such as 'skilled executants'.
1 day 20 hrs
Thanks, rkillings - I think it's best to stay with the accepted term.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "OK thanks for your help here"
-1
9 mins

practitioner

*

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Note added at 10 mins (2009-06-26 08:59:43 GMT)
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according to the GDT:
http://www.granddictionnaire.com/BTML/FRA/r_Motclef/index102...
Définition :
Membre d'une profession qui exerce cette dernière à titre libéral soit seul, soit en association avec d'autres, ou en tant que salarié d'un autre professionnel en exercice. .
synonyme(s)
professionnel libéral
professionnel en exercice libéral
praticien
Peer comment(s):

disagree Helen Shiner : Sorry, not in this context
45 mins
Something went wrong...
14 mins

craftsman

http://www.prlog.org/10154327-specialist-masonry-and-plaster...

I would suggest craftsmen or specialist craftsmen in this context.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Helen Shiner : Not really specific enough here - they were highly skilled craftsmen, it is true, but they are generally referred to by the FR term - it was something very much associated with Rodin's artistic practice.
42 mins
Something went wrong...
1 hr

professional craftsman

A try.
Peer comment(s):

agree Bourth (X) : Or sth. like "trained professionals" if the degree of craftsmanship is in doubt ...
9 mins
disagree Helen Shiner : Far too general - they are referred to as praticiens, I can assure you.
18 mins
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

roughin-out sculptor

Doesn't appear to be the consecrated term but conveys the message (see my Discussion entry).

Roughing out
When he is ready to carve, the artist usually begins by knocking off large portions of unwanted stone. For this task he may select a point chisel, which is a long, hefty piece of steel with a point at one end and a broad striking surface at the other. A pitching tool may also be used at this early stage; which is a wedge-shaped chisel with a broad, flat edge. The pitching tool is useful for splitting the stone and removing large, unwanted chunks. The sculptor also selects a mallet, which is a hammer with a broad, barrel-shaped head. The artist places the point of the chisel or the edge of the pitching tool against a selected part of the stone, then swings the mallet at it with the strongest possible stroke. He must be careful to strike the end of the tool accurately; the smallest miscalculation can damage the sculptor’s hand. When the mallet connects to the tool, energy is transferred along the tool, shattering the stone. Most sculptors work rhythmically, turning the tool with each blow so that the stone is removed quickly and evenly. This is the “roughing out” stage of the sculpting process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_sculpture


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Note added at 1 hr (2009-06-26 10:21:31 GMT)
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With a G, normally, but it might be safe to assume a roughing-out sculptor would be lacking in education and would describe himself as a "roughin-out sculptor", don't you think?
Peer comment(s):

disagree Helen Shiner : Sorry but in the late 19th century, this is not what is meant.
10 mins
Agreed, much on the Web contradicts the Lexis definition. I bow to your greater knowledge.
neutral Christopher Crockett : This dog won't hunt. From the context, they are clearly not "roughing out" the sculpture, rather they "reproduits directement sur le bâtiment" the works "conceived" by the painters & sculptors. If anything, they are "finishing artisans."
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
4 hrs
French term (edited): praticiens

hightly skilled finishing artisans

Bourth's Larousse definition just doesn't seem to fit the context of your text. These guys were not charged with "roughing out" the sculptures (or the paintings), but with executing the [finished] work of the master painter or sculptor.

There is no single word for them in English, that I know of.

The English word "artisans" is a somewhat "elastic" term, implying a certain level of skill in any given craft, but less than that of a "master" of that medium.

Your text seems to be saying that these guys took the work of the master painters/sculptors from their studio and *executed* it (in an architectural context probably on a much larger scale) **in its final form** --either directly on the building (certainly true for painting) or (for sculpture) in a studio of their own, for final placement by the masons.

Thus, they were (of course) "highly skilled" and also charged with "finishing" (realizing in the final medium) the work of the master painters/sculptors.

"...polychrome friezes, monumental groups, statues and ornements, all conceived in the studio by the painters and sculptors before being reproduced directly on the building by highly skilled finishing artisans."

What's wrong with that?

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Note added at 7 days (2009-07-03 13:01:30 GMT) Post-grading
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I find it quite curious, Ysabel, that the "winner's" answer consists, largely, of my own.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Helen Shiner : Biggest problem is that they do more than just finishing and in fact it is far more likely that the main named sculptor will come along afterwards and 'finish' the work - add the hand of the master so to speak.
1 hr
Yes, "finish" is a relative term, I suppose. Thanks, Helen.
agree Emma Paulay : I'm no expert here, I just tend to look at questions with interesting words. However, I find your argument in the discussion section very convincing. I found a ref defining praticien as someone who does everything a sculptor does, except the design part.
2 hrs
Thanks, Emma. What's your source?
Something went wrong...
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