This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
pontuel
"jusqu’au-delà"
Mar 7, 2009 13:18
15 yrs ago
5 viewers *
French term

dernière

Non-PRO French to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s)
Dear all,
I would like to know the meaning of "dernière" in the following context:

Cet Accord bénéficiera à la Partie Soussignée et l’engagera envers un autre SIGNATAIRE à partir de la dernière des dates suivantes : la date de signature de l'Accord par la Partie Soussignée ou la date de signature d'un exemplaire de l'Accord par cet autre SIGNATAIRE.

Many thanks in advance!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 the latter of the following dates
4 +2 most recent
4 the last occurring (of the following two dates):
4 the later
3 on the last of the following dates to occur
4 -1 latest
Change log

Mar 7, 2009 14:45: Kim Metzger changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): writeaway

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:

An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)

A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).

Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.

When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.

* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.

Discussion

rkillings Mar 8, 2009:
dernière en date When the French word is applied to dates, you can assume it refers to time, not the order of the sentence. And in this sentence, what would be the point of even mentioning the first date if the second-mentioned always applied? The only meaning of "latter" that would make sense here in English is the one that is identical to "later", so what is the argument about?
Katarina Peters Mar 8, 2009:
prior/latter or earliest/latest OK, supposing there are 2 documents: one is signed on February 28, 2009 and the other is signed on December 31st, 2008. Obviously, the valid contract is the one signed on February 28th, 2009, therefore, signed NOT on the latter date in the sentence, but on the latest date, (i.e., the most recent date), which is the prior date in this particular sentence...
Tamara Salvio Mar 7, 2009:
google Interesting analysis Bentevi! It's also instructive to expand your google search to "the latter of the following" vs. "the later of the following" - the first returns 7060 references referring alternatively to "things" as well as to periods or dates, while the second returns 49,400, all in reference to periods or dates.

Richard Nordquist, a Ph.D. in English and rhetoric, has an entry for later vs. latter on About.com under "Commonly Confused Words" which reads:

Use later when referring to time. Use latter when referring to the second of two persons or things mentioned previously.
http://grammar.about.com/od/words/a/latergloss.htm

Though "latter" used in this instance would surely be understood implicitly by anyone reading or writing such a clause, it seems to me that "later" is the more precise translation here.
Bentevi Mar 7, 2009:
the later of the following dates # the earlier of.
Google Advanced Search

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 11,400 for "the earlier of the following dates". (0.25 seconds)

Advanced Search
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 13,000 for "the later of the following dates". (0.09 seconds)

Google Advanced Search
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 741 for "the latter of the following dates". (0.08 seconds)
Bentevi Mar 7, 2009:
Google - later of the following dates x the latter the later of the following dates - 13,000
the latter of the following dates - 731

latter adj 1: referring to the the second of two things or persons mentioned (or the last one or ones of several); "in the latter case"

However, when referring to time "later and latter" can be used interchangeably. The case in point is more a matter of collocation, not just meaning.

2: more advanced in time or nearer to the end in a sequence;
"these latter days"; "the latter (or last) part of the
book"; "latter (or later) part of the 18th century" [syn:
later, last, latter]
the later of the following dates is the opposite of the earlier of the following dates, which is the chunk I usually see in agreements:)
Tamara Salvio Mar 7, 2009:
latter vs. later What definition of latter are you all referring to to make this usage correct? The use of "later" or any variation relating to time is what is called for in this instance, unless I'm missing something here (and I'm not ruling that out ;-).

Proposed translations

+4
1 hr
Selected

the latter of the following dates

It's non-pro now so here's my answer. But I assume Polyglot 45's "later" is a typo/misspelling of "latter" and if that's the case, then this just a repeat of his/her answer.

1 MINUTES OF A MEETING OF THE MONTGOMERYSHIRE PLANNING SUB ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
3 Aug 2007 ... begun before whichever is the latter of the following dates -. (a) The expiration of five years from the date of grant of outline ...
www.powys.gov.uk/min_2007-08-03msp1_en.pdf?id=47

[PDF]
Application for Sick Leave Pool Withdrawal
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
21 Nov 2002 ... If approved, effective date of approval will be the latter of the following dates: a. Date ALL leave accruals expire or; ...
www.utmb.edu/benefits/forms/slpapp.pdf
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tamara Salvio : on second thought, though one does see it, I believe it is a misuse of the word "latter", "later" or "last-occurring" are more appropriate here / why not? whichever of the (future) dates occurs last of the two...
1 hr
agree-but latter just jumps to mind faster when there are only two. /last occuring when it's for the future?? I don't think so
agree Kim Metzger : Latter.
1 hr
agree Jean-Claude Gouin : latter ...
1 hr
agree James Langridge : "hichever of the (future) dates occurs last of the two" = "latter" ?
7 hrs
neutral rkillings : only in the sense of "occurring nearer to the end", so why not say later?
12 hrs
agree swanda
1 day 7 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you Writeaway! Grateful to everybody!"
3 mins

on the last of the following dates to occur

imo
Something went wrong...
4 mins

the last occurring (of the following two dates):

I think it means whichever of the following two dates (the date of signature of the agreement OR the date of signature of a copy of the agreement...etc.) occurs last is the date that counts.
Something went wrong...
+2
11 mins

most recent

whichever of the following two dates is most recent

- just another option

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 mins (2009-03-07 13:31:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

oops - meant 'more' recent since only 2 dates are involved
Peer comment(s):
agree MatthewLaSon : I like this one!
5 hrs
Cheers, Matthew!
agree Tamara Salvio : avoids the latter vs. later debate!
8 hrs
Thanks, Tamara. You're right - probably best to avoid them altogether
disagree James Langridge : The document becomes binding on both parties, after they both sign it, not after the most recent signature?
9 hrs
This is getting more confusing by the minute! I understand it to mean that the contract becomes binding either when agreement 1 is signed OR agreement 2 is signed, whichever is signed last, hence the agreement bearing the more recently dated signature
agree Jennifer White : This seems the most sensible option, and try as I might, I just cannot see how "latter" would work here.
1 day 8 hrs
Thanks, Jennifer
Something went wrong...
30 mins

the later

sorry about the previous typo

we are talking of 2 dates here
Peer comment(s):
neutral writeaway : you mean latter, don't you? I wondered if anyone would get this far...../@James-won't answer unless it becomes non-pro. answer is obvious and I don't want pro points for this.
26 mins
neutral James Langridge : Yes, it is 'latter'. Why not simply answer the question instead of wondering?
30 mins
agree Tamara Salvio : why would it be latter? Latter means "the second of two or the second mentioned of two" so the date would simply be the second of the two mentioned / typo or no, it is not bad English to say "the later of the two following dates"
2 hrs
disagree Kim Metzger : Later is just bad English.
2 hrs
it is also a typo
Something went wrong...
-1
2 hrs

latest

in this context: ...the latest of the following dates:...
Peer comment(s):
disagree Kim Metzger : The latter of the two.
1 hr
If the latter date happens to be a date prior to the first date mentioned, then that's not the LATEST date. (March 7 is the latest, just as an example)
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search