Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
carré d\'as
English translation:
crème de la crème
Added to glossary by
Victoria Britten
Jun 12, 2014 09:58
10 yrs ago
4 viewers *
French term
carré d'as
French to English
Other
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
context: orchestral musicians (seating)
This one is a bit of a long shot. It's a trainee conductor, saying that as he's conducting he loses his idea of which musicians are where, and "Je sais que c'est le carré d'as". This doesn't appear to be a standard term, because his instructor repeats it with some surprise, but is clearly one that is used by others as well, at least amongst this (Paris central) Conservatoire's students.
I would like to be able to use an appropriately similar image in English, but sense that "four aces" is very unlikely to be appropriate! However, never having played in an orchestra I can't begin to imagine what this expression might be picking up on. All creative help gratefully accepted.
I would like to be able to use an appropriately similar image in English, but sense that "four aces" is very unlikely to be appropriate! However, never having played in an orchestra I can't begin to imagine what this expression might be picking up on. All creative help gratefully accepted.
Proposed translations
(English)
4 +2 | crème de la crème | Nikki Scott-Despaigne |
Change log
Jun 12, 2014 11:13: writeaway changed "Field (write-in)" from "orchestral musicians" to "orchestral musicians (seating)"
Jun 16, 2014 08:10: writeaway changed "Field" from "Art/Literary" to "Other" , "Field (specific)" from "Music" to "General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters" , "Field (write-in)" from "orchestral musicians (seating)" to "context: orchestral musicians (seating)"
Proposed translations
+2
1 hr
Selected
crème de la crème
http://www.poker-regle-strategie.com/regles/carre.php
It means your hand is comprised of the four aces.
As Patrick indicates, this conductor is saying that he can trust his orchestra as they as the bee's knees, the crème de la crème.
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:16:26 GMT)
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Of course, you wouldn't say "four of a kind" in your context, but the possibilities are endless.
Here's an extract from the source I cited. Sorry, I ought to have posted this in the first part.
"carré
Le carré (four of a kind) est formé par les quatre cartes d'un même rang, accompagnées d'une carte quelconque. C'est une combinaison majeure, pratiquement imbattable. Le carré le plus fort est celui de rang le plus élevé."
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:17:19 GMT)
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The definition is pretty helpful and may be a source of inspiration for finding something more in line with the style you have adopted for your translation.
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:23:13 GMT)
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Don't overthink the "carré" format. It's just a term in poker being used to indicate that these guys are top notch. It starts and stops there for this term. I played for several years in a symphony orchestra and fail to see where the wind section comes into it. That's over-reading, overcomplicating things. Take the image at face value. The rest has got nothing to do with the price of beef in my opinion! ;-)
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Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:30:37 GMT)
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Oh dear. Victoria, no! Not that at all. I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time following your line of thought. The question you ask is the meaning of "carré d'as" in context. it may or may not be in reference to the Festival Clain has so helpfully pointed to. That Fesitval adopts the very same idea, that "carré d'as" are top notch, winner, champions!!! It is really very simple, honestly, believe me.
Nothing to do with the wind section, nothing to do with orchestra layout and everything to do with the guy, on the spur of the moment, saying that these guys are "carré d'as" (in ref to the festival or not) in other words, the best, real pros.
Cease to overthink, it really is a little bit of very, very simple imagery being used.
It means your hand is comprised of the four aces.
As Patrick indicates, this conductor is saying that he can trust his orchestra as they as the bee's knees, the crème de la crème.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:16:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Of course, you wouldn't say "four of a kind" in your context, but the possibilities are endless.
Here's an extract from the source I cited. Sorry, I ought to have posted this in the first part.
"carré
Le carré (four of a kind) est formé par les quatre cartes d'un même rang, accompagnées d'une carte quelconque. C'est une combinaison majeure, pratiquement imbattable. Le carré le plus fort est celui de rang le plus élevé."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:17:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The definition is pretty helpful and may be a source of inspiration for finding something more in line with the style you have adopted for your translation.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:23:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Don't overthink the "carré" format. It's just a term in poker being used to indicate that these guys are top notch. It starts and stops there for this term. I played for several years in a symphony orchestra and fail to see where the wind section comes into it. That's over-reading, overcomplicating things. Take the image at face value. The rest has got nothing to do with the price of beef in my opinion! ;-)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-06-12 11:30:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Oh dear. Victoria, no! Not that at all. I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time following your line of thought. The question you ask is the meaning of "carré d'as" in context. it may or may not be in reference to the Festival Clain has so helpfully pointed to. That Fesitval adopts the very same idea, that "carré d'as" are top notch, winner, champions!!! It is really very simple, honestly, believe me.
Nothing to do with the wind section, nothing to do with orchestra layout and everything to do with the guy, on the spur of the moment, saying that these guys are "carré d'as" (in ref to the festival or not) in other words, the best, real pros.
Cease to overthink, it really is a little bit of very, very simple imagery being used.
Note from asker:
Hmm. As in "I know they're a talented lot, but I can't seem to let them just get on with it," a bit like an inadequate teacher shouting at a classful of children? |
Inadequate or - more to the point here - inexperienced? |
I think actually we're not thinking on lines that are so very different. I'm pretty sure now that your basic idea is right, but I have to make it make sense in relation to the context: maybe I haven't made this clear, but his body language during this exchange suggests a degree of helplessness - he isn't just saying what a lucky boy he is to have such a fine bunch of musicians to conduct. |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
patrickfor
: yes ! Not being a native I can't be sure but that's definitely the idea I think
7 mins
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It's an image, to be taken as is, ni peluche, ni moine.
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agree |
Ashley Burricks
1 day 9 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks a lot for your involvement."
Discussion
It's been quite a challenging experience: for example, I confess I fail to see what difference the instructor's exact words make; being chided for thinking too much when I'm being bombarded by multiple interpretations from all sides isn't particularly comfortable; and the apparent underlying assumption of several contributors that if only they saw the video themselves they'd "get it right" immediately didn't make me feel the warm glow of solidarity that KudoZian adventures sometimes generate.
The job has now been handed in - with blanks, for the first time in an admittedly not hugely long career - but I feel kind of duty-bound to carry on following the discussion, so I'd be very grateful if it could stop here and we could just agree to disagree.
With many thanks for your enthusiastic help!
Instructeur '"Tes mains, c'est de plus en plus haut, là !"
il fait remarquer au chef que ses mains sont de plus en plus hautes. C'est de toute évidence la marque d'une incompréhension (mais pourquoi monte t'il ses mains dans une position inhabituelle pour l'instructeur ?).
Et naturellement il faut qu'il explique.. Il commence par "parce que du coup" je ne sais plus ou sont les musiciens"
1) Peut-être justement parce qu'il a commencé a (trop) lever ses mains il ne voit pas ce qu'il veut voir et DU COUP il continue a lever encore plus pour dégager son champ de vision
2) s'il y a un silence entre "parce que" et "du coup" le sens peut-être totalement différent....
ex:
"parce que.... Du coup tu m'enerves, je ne repondrai pas à ta question"
Du coup (- parce que tu me poses cette question/tu me fais cette remarque) je n'ai plus envie de te répondre.
"du coup" can express many things, Not easy to explain this in english only!
- Why are your hands getting higher and higher?
- Because then [i.e. as a result, not temporal] I no longer know where the musicians are and I... I know (that) *mystery phrase but some kind of point about excellence*
To explain that his hands are getting higher because that then means he doesn't know where the players are seems... well, odd.
That said, my underlying assumption is that not knowing where the musicians are is sub-optimal. If it is somehow a good thing, then what he says makes more sense.
Either way, I agree (naturally!) 100% that having "Tes mains, c'est de plus en plus haut, là," from the outset would have been useful. If you're trying to decode a response (and regardless of my opinion on its appropriateness, a phrase starting "parce que" is clearly meant as a response), it's handy to have the words being responded to. Ho hum. The sun's out, it's almost the weekend, the World Cup's started... I'll stop here :)
It's been an interesting discussion, at least!
@Charlie: I don't agree with you 'parce que" il not out of place at all.
He is answering to what in fact is a question he is asked (about why he is raising his hands more and more.
- Pourquoi tes mains sont de plus en plus hautes ?
- Parce que ....
You'll have to forgive my query - 10 years in IT support taught me never to take anything for granted when people are asking for help, and various questions over the years on here only reinforce that view, I'm afraid.
At this point I'm inclined to share the view that the expression should probably be taken at face value, a non-musical reference to something being superlative. The balance of probabilities is, I suppose, it means the orchestra, although again, it seems a bit odd the instructor would query it. If it is the (standard of) the players he's referring to, perhaps "they're all ace(s)" would work?
When I discuss with my english friends we "jump" from one language to the other in order to ensure we have a proper undestanding of what is said, what is the meaning behind some "strange" wording... Not common practice here.
That said, we only have your translation of the instructor's comment to which the problem phrase is, ultimately, the response. I for one am still wondering quite why "parce que, du coup, je ne sais plus..." is an entirely appropriate response to the observation he holds his hands high. I hesitate to suggest this, but there are couple of idioms involving the words "haut(e)" and "main", so would it be possible to see what the conductor actually says, in French? Just on the slight chance it's not actually about having "high" "hands" at all? :)
I reckon you have got all you will out of a multiple contribution post ona site like this and that without more info, the question will not be resolved.
You cannot rely on guesswork, but the absence of capital letters suggsts not a direct reference. But now we have this info, it is relevant and the matter needs to be cleared up. You can only do that by aksing your client.
(Back to catch up on time spent thinking which spuds to buy).
If that seems unhelpful, it's just meant to advise against jumping in with both feet deciding it means this not that.
Or perhaps he is saying that even though he got lost, this "great" orchestra has managed to continue playing even without his help - in that case they wouldn't need to be any good at all.
But I do find the "c'est" a little strange, which is why my first guess was and is that the 4 aces refers to a "thing" and not to people. Usage when referring to people as le carré d'ace seems to most often logically refer to 4 people. A festival is a "thing" - not people.
But I googled ''Vous êtes le carré d'as" and couldn't find anything for that wording.
If they aren't, no reason to talk about the musicians being "aces".
"The instructor points out that he's holding his hands very high, and he says "Parce que du coup je sais plus où sont les musiciens et je... [holding his hands high as though he's trying to emphasize that people need to be looking at them] ...Je sais que c'est le carré d'as, mais...". The instructor repeats the expression with some surprise, and he repeats it back, so there's no doubt that that's what being said (and indeed the script confirms it)."
[I'll just mention that I studied conducting at the U of California as part of my composition studies.]
Ce qui précède ce "parce que" doit forcément expliquer POURQUOI il ne sait plus où sont les musiciens :-)
In real life, there is no square of musicians.
It that looks like a square on the url drawing because the software puts the words straight, and there are only 4 words. In a real orchestra, there are several more people and they are usually arranged in a curve.
Also no reason to single out these players as aces, and lots of reasons to not do so.
I was wondering if he simply meant that as he was a bit vague about the orchestral layout, he held his hands up high so that everyone could see and it would be easy to target the sections — so by doing so, he was "holding a winning hand" so to speak.
A bit far-fetched, I know, but heck, why not... we're all guessing here!
PS: Encore une fois il me semble difficile de discuter de la signification d'une conversation en français directement et uniquement en anglais. Une langue n'est pas directement "transportable".
And of course he may not even be referring to the woodwinds - maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely...
My research has taught me that in a symphony orchestra, the woodwind instruments can either be lined up or in groups, so that the sections can better hear each other, but I haven't managed to find a name for these different seating plans in either language.